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So let's say Ivanpah Airport becomes a reality. What happens to McCarran?
I know of some cities elsewhere in the world where a 2nd airport is built and the original one still remains the main airport. In most instances, the 2nd airport is home to more of the budget airlines.
And if you have to get there 2 hours before you fly then add in an hour for drive time...why bother. You might as well drive wherever you were going! You could drive to LA faster than flying there!
I know of some cities elsewhere in the world where a 2nd airport is built and the original one still remains the main airport. In most instances, the 2nd airport is home to more of the budget airlines.
I have to challenge you to name those cities. I don't think any exist outside of Montreal and Washington DC.
There are cases where a small remote airport that existed a long time gets built up and attracts some of the traffic (including budget airlines) from the main airport. A good example is Manchester–Boston Regional Airport (founded in 1927). They moved more than 1 million passengers in a year for the first time after 70 years and an all-time high of 4.33 million in 2005.
But a purpose built airport cannot survive with just a tiny fraction of the air traffic. No budget airline would voluntarily go to the remote location. Ivanpah with only a few million air passengers, is never going to have a high speed rail, and the passengers are quickly going to figure out that taking a budget airline to Ivanpah is penny wise and pound foolish, because any savings is eaten up by ground transportation. The construction costs will then bankrupt the airport authority.
Montreal tried to build a new airport which opened in 1975 and keep the old one open at the same time. It was one of the most costly infrastructure project failures in history up to that time. Washington DC built Dulles Airport and kept National open at the same time, but it was subsidized for decades by the federal government. Dallas Fort Worth opened in 1973 and Dallas Love Field was kept open, but the Wright Amendment severely curtailed the flights into Love Field for decades.
Although we tend to talk about runways overcrowding, the reality is that airports only function as a business if everyone lands in the same place.
It is not possible to split the traffic into a close in airport and a far away airport unless you have massive federal subsidies. Mind you, government officials are going to try and prove that statement is wrong. People wanted to keep the old Denver airport open if only for regional aircraft.
I am very strongly of the opinion that you can never build an airport at Ivanpah and keep McCarran open. Not for regional planes, and not for cargo aircraft. I suspect someone will try and argue with me, but there is no business model that will function with both airports open.
I have to challenge you to name those cities. I don't think any exist outside of Montreal and Washington DC.
There are cases where a small remote airport that existed a long time gets built up and attracts some of the traffic (including budget airlines) from the main airport. A good example is Manchester–Boston Regional Airport (founded in 1927). They moved more than 1 million passengers in a year for the first time after 70 years and an all-time high of 4.33 million in 2005.
But a purpose built airport cannot survive with just a tiny fraction of the air traffic. No budget airline would voluntarily go to the remote location. Ivanpah with only a few million air passengers, is never going to have a high speed rail, and the passengers are quickly going to figure out that taking a budget airline to Ivanpah is penny wise and pound foolish, because any savings is eaten up by ground transportation. The construction costs will then bankrupt the airport authority.
Montreal tried to build a new airport which opened in 1975 and keep the old one open at the same time. It was one of the most costly infrastructure project failures in history up to that time. Washington DC built Dulles Airport and kept National open at the same time, but it was subsidized for decades by the federal government. Dallas Fort Worth opened in 1973 and Dallas Love Field was kept open, but the Wright Amendment severely curtailed the flights into Love Field for decades.
Although we tend to talk about runways overcrowding, the reality is that airports only function as a business if everyone lands in the same place.
It is not possible to split the traffic into a close in airport and a far away airport unless you have massive federal subsidies. Mind you, government officials are going to try and prove that statement is wrong. People wanted to keep the old Denver airport open if only for regional aircraft.
I am very strongly of the opinion that you can never build an airport at Ivanpah and keep McCarran open. Not for regional planes, and not for cargo aircraft. I suspect someone will try and argue with me, but there is no business model that will function with both airports open.
I will certainly take you up on that argument. The error is your view that McCarran is simply an airport. It is not. It is an airport and a major component of the Las Vegas strip. They ability to get to and from long haul transport is a capability shared by few and providing value well outside of its worth as simply an airport.
And whatever happens at least for the next decades the vast majority of the air arrivals are going to be at McCarran. And I expect that McCarran will become even more integrated into the Strip...check in at the hotel and go direct to your plane for instance. Could be done at McCarran.
I would think the initial development at Ivanpah will be light duty as to passenger facilities. Maybe a nice long runway... But limited passenger facilities. So freight and GA with some light passenger.
If the need becomes apparent to really handle passengers at Ivanpah then you handle it with high speed rail or maybe even hyperloop. If you made a two stop hyperloop you could very well open that entire area to development. Put another million people out there. Probably take it to the limit of the water available. By the time that occurs we will likely understand hyperloop and maglev and such much better.
I have to challenge you to name those cities. I don't think any exist outside of Montreal and Washington DC.
There are cases where a small remote airport that existed a long time gets built up and attracts some of the traffic (including budget airlines) from the main airport. A good example is Manchester–Boston Regional Airport (founded in 1927). They moved more than 1 million passengers in a year for the first time after 70 years and an all-time high of 4.33 million in 2005.
But a purpose built airport cannot survive with just a tiny fraction of the air traffic. No budget airline would voluntarily go to the remote location. Ivanpah with only a few million air passengers, is never going to have a high speed rail, and the passengers are quickly going to figure out that taking a budget airline to Ivanpah is penny wise and pound foolish, because any savings is eaten up by ground transportation. The construction costs will then bankrupt the airport authority.
Montreal tried to build a new airport which opened in 1975 and keep the old one open at the same time. It was one of the most costly infrastructure project failures in history up to that time. Washington DC built Dulles Airport and kept National open at the same time, but it was subsidized for decades by the federal government. Dallas Fort Worth opened in 1973 and Dallas Love Field was kept open, but the Wright Amendment severely curtailed the flights into Love Field for decades.
Although we tend to talk about runways overcrowding, the reality is that airports only function as a business if everyone lands in the same place.
It is not possible to split the traffic into a close in airport and a far away airport unless you have massive federal subsidies. Mind you, government officials are going to try and prove that statement is wrong. People wanted to keep the old Denver airport open if only for regional aircraft.
I am very strongly of the opinion that you can never build an airport at Ivanpah and keep McCarran open. Not for regional planes, and not for cargo aircraft. I suspect someone will try and argue with me, but there is no business model that will function with both airports open.
McCarran is going to be the expensive option for airlines and Ivanpah is the bargain option. Phoenix has this now with Mesa getting some traffic from low-cost carriers. Its not an easy sell at first, but with so many price conscious travelers into tourist markets it definitely can work. My guess is a private partnership will be solicited and whoever wins is going to have to fork over enough money so that the Ivanpah airport basically gets subsidized with that cash flow for a few years and then as traffic builds and as more development grows in that direction there will be ways to make it sustainable on its own. Cargo may not be a big part of the business model today, but certainly access to lots of available land next to a major highway less than four hours from LA is a perfect spot to build a lot of business concepts, some aerospace oriented, others based on logistics. Its hard to imagine it now, but I see that whole I-15 corridor as a huge asset for the region and could see a very rapid development phase so that 30 years from now its pretty much developed all the way to the state line.
I will certainly take you up on that argument. The error is your view that McCarran is simply an airport. It is not. It is an airport and a major component of the Las Vegas strip. They ability to get to and from long haul transport is a capability shared by few and providing value well outside of its worth as simply an airport.
Actually, my belief is that McCarran should be the only airport for Vegas for the next decade. Ivanpah doesn't make sense right now. Perhaps in 30 years when high speed rail is an option, then Ivanpah should be developed.
But in order to accomplish that goal, the Federal government is going to have to give airports the authority to force airlines to use larger planes to prevent runway congestion. Slot auctions or eliminating landing fees according to weight will make it financially smarter to use larger planes.
First if an airport is too crowded it should not be flying regional jets (76 seats or less)
Breakdown April 2017
25.7% Wide Body 15.2% Regional - JFK
1.5% Wide Body 14.8% Regional - San Diego
2.7% Wide Body 3.4% Regional - Las Vegas
Eventually the goal is to increase the average passengers per operation (numbers below based on April 2017)
San Diego 143 seats average with 81.9% load
Las Vegas 159 seats average with 85.4% load
JFK 170 seats average with 81.7% load (highest passengers per operation in nation)
Second priority should be placed on rapid rail to the airport with luggage check in offsite (like in London). That will reduce congestion in the terminals.
Average number of passengers per operation in 2016 (based on BTS stats)
137 JFK
131 LAS
129 MIA
128 LAX
120 SAN
118 MID
117 ATL
114 BWI
102 EWR
100 BOS
99 DFW
91 ORD
82 LGA
79 DCA
Even though Las Vegas doesn't have the huge percentage of wide body flights like JFK (no airport in the USA comes close to JFK), the lack of regional jets and fairly crowded narrowbody jets puts them at #2.
JFK, MIA, and LAX are the main international gateways into the country and attract some of the largest planes.
In San Diego county they prepared a 149 page document on the San Diego airport by SH&E Forecast that
SDIA Will Reach 260,000 Aircraft Operations Between 2015 (High) and 2022 (Low)
At 300,000 Annual Operations, Severe Runway Congestion Will Eliminate Further Growth (Between 2021 and 2030)
In reality the operations at San Diego airport only increased for one year after the Nov 2006 vote.
Instead of hitting 260,000 as early as 2015, they may never reach that many operations
1990 212,553
1991 206,487
1992 213,983
1993 208,506
1994 221,044
1995 245,280<--------- All time Maximum number of operations
1996 224,466
1997 224,488
1998 223,257
1999 222,356
2000 207,916
2001 206,848
2002 206,605
2003 204,713<--------- San Diego County Regional Airport Authority created 1 January 2003 to produce proposal on where to relocate airport
2004 215,211
2005 229,192
2006 230,798<----------- year citizens voted about relocating airport
2007 237,574
2008 228,167
2009 199,612
2010 190,137
2011 185,143<----------- minimum number of operations since 1989
2012 187,326
2013 187,981
2014 191,765
2015 193,712
2016 196,935
Sources: Air Traffic Activity System (ATADS)
A similar data for Las Vegas Airport from Air Traffic Activity System (ATADS)
2000 521,300
2001 498,970
2002 498,037
2003 510,814
2004 574,355
2005 614,312
2006 619,474 <--------------------- peak number of operations
2007 619,287
2008 578,946
2009 511,063
2010 505,604
2011 531,538
2012 528,004
2013 520,386
2014 522,067
2015 524,878
2016 535,740
Breakdown for 2016
360,098 Air Carrier
132,009 Air Taxi
42,617 General Aviation
1,016 Military
535,740 Total
So in order to stay with McCarran Field you have to control both runway congestion and terminal congestion.
Last edited by PacoMartin; 10-28-2017 at 08:42 AM..
Ask yourself: What is the Valley's biggest source of pollution? Right: McCarran.
What is its biggest source of noise? Right again, McCarran (and here's a noise map to show where. Zoom in) https://maps.bts.dot.gov/arcgis/apps...464cc0e9d5c9fb
What would 2,800 acres fronting the Strip on the west and Tropicana on the south be worth? The abandoned Skyvue site is going for $10 million an acre, so billions, right? Would that build a new and improved airport at Ivanpah? Many times over.
What is Vegas good at? Reinventing itself.
Compare McCarran to Denver's Stapleton, which was located in a scenario identical to ours. After it was moved lock, stock and runways 30 miles outside of town its become a great airport success story. The only thing it lacks is the high-speed connector that we'll be sure to include when we rebuild McCarran.
Denver https://www.google.com/search?q=denv...ftH0-ELSIgKqM:
Blowing up and relocating McCarran to Ivanpah would remove a blight and turn a 30-mile-long dead zone into an economic corridor of epic proportions and allow this town to reinvent itself in a way like no other.
Ask yourself: What is the Valley's biggest source of pollution? Right: McCarran.
What is its biggest source of noise? Right again, McCarran (and here's a noise map to show where. Zoom in) https://maps.bts.dot.gov/arcgis/apps...464cc0e9d5c9fb
What would 2,800 acres fronting the Strip on the west and Tropicana on the south be worth? The abandoned Skyvue site is going for $10 million an acre, so billions, right? Would that build a new and improved airport at Ivanpah? Many times over.
What is Vegas good at? Reinventing itself.
Compare McCarran to Denver's Stapleton, which was located in a scenario identical to ours. After it was moved lock, stock and runways 30 miles outside of town its become a great airport success story. The only thing it lacks is the high-speed connector that we'll be sure to include when we rebuild McCarran.
Denver https://www.google.com/search?q=denv...ftH0-ELSIgKqM:
Blowing up and relocating McCarran to Ivanpah would remove a blight and turn a 30-mile-long dead zone into an economic corridor of epic proportions and allow this town to reinvent itself in a way like no other.
Last edited by Bruff; 10-28-2017 at 12:22 PM..
Reason: its a duplicate post
Ask yourself: What is the Valley's biggest source of pollution? Right: McCarran.
What is its biggest source of noise? Right again, McCarran (and here's a noise map to show where. Zoom in) https://maps.bts.dot.gov/arcgis/apps...464cc0e9d5c9fb
What would 2,800 acres fronting the Strip on the west and Tropicana on the south be worth? The abandoned Skyvue site is going for $10 million an acre, so billions, right? Would that build a new and improved airport at Ivanpah? Many times over.
What is Vegas good at? Reinventing itself.
Compare McCarran to Denver's Stapleton, which was located in a scenario identical to ours. After it was moved lock, stock and runways 30 miles outside of town its become a great airport success story. The only thing it lacks is the high-speed connector that we'll be sure to include when we rebuild McCarran.
Denver https://www.google.com/search?q=denv...ftH0-ELSIgKqM:
Blowing up and relocating McCarran to Ivanpah would remove a blight and turn a 30-mile-long dead zone into an economic corridor of epic proportions and allow this town to reinvent itself in a way like no other.
[quote=lvmensch;49931565] "McCarran ...is (both) an airport and a major component of the Las Vegas strip."
How the dickens is MacCarran a major component of the Strip?
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