Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
FWIW, it sounds like Reform congregations are going to regard the kids as Jewish. You and your wife know better, but what would be your BIL's outlook on this? Are you sure that he doesn't already know what observant Jews think about this? Is there any chance at all that she would be interested in really converting?
These are some good questions, although the phrase "really converting" needs some illumination.
TFF, what exactly do you know about her conversion? I have a future Sister-in-law who just converted in via Reform, with a year of serious text study, mikvah, beis din (rabbinic court inquiry) asking her very hard questions of faith and motivation. The rituals are identical. Is that then a halachic conversion, or ruled out only because it's under the signature of a Reform rabbi?
As I hear it, the big differences in beit din is who serves on it, and to what extent each one demands expression of immediate commitment to kashrut as a precondition for their favorable ruling. Not every prospective convert is able to honestly answer "YES" to every question of how kosher their kitchen will be. If that's the entire basis of halachic difference, it's really worth thinking over as the dividing line between whether you and your wife (or your rabbis) say a Reform conversion is halachic. In past years, Reform didn't go to mikvah but now, for conversions, THEY DO strongly encourage it, and most converts decide to go. At the mikva, they give over entirely to whoever is running the mikvah (usually Orthodox) and the preparation, witnessing, dipping and prayers are identical.
The classroom study within Reform is generally MORE and LONGER, these days runnning 2 hours/week from Sept-June or Sept-Aug. Correct me if this is more misinformation, but I've heard of people meeting 3x in the office of an Orthodox rabbi, getting the nod, and over to the mikvah. I know this is because both these Rabbis know it's a lifelong process, not a one-time literacy course, but still you need to acknowledge that she probably studied more and has more founational literacy after her Reform program. Stunning as it is, that's what's occurring in the Reform movement today as told to you by someone IN the movement, not just talking about it with denigration from outside.
Everyone in the Reform movement knows of the disrespect heaped upon Reform over patrilineal descent. Every Reform rabbi today offers full disclosure and discusses options to future converts before they study together, including readily connecting them to nearby Orthodox rabbis instead of themselves. Mostly the future converts don't want to LIE to a beis din and promise they'll keep kosher, or answer questions trickily. They'd rather be honest, and take things in steps. That's worthy of some respect here.
If you continue to call her non-Jewish, you cannot disengage from saying that you consider all born Reform Jews not Jewish. So while you're at it, will you also sit shiva for the rest of your family, along with this new Reform Jew?
Divorce happens for a host of reasons. You can't write the narrative as only being about religious differences. I deeply agree that those differences manifest themselves and people underestimate at the time of marriage how hard it can get. But there's also finances, sexuality, and personality differences. You can't say categorically "why" his first marriage tanked. Nobody knows what happens behind another's closed doors.
I haven't heard of a family sitting shiva for an out-marriage in a long time, but I've heard of it. I REALLY think you need to talk to yourselves about whether this is an "out-marriage" or the issue is that you reject all Reform Jews and equate them as goys. You do NOT have a goyishe sister-in-law; you have someone who has walked over coals with her own family to get this far.
Where I live, Shabbat is approaching and I know you are otherwise involved than to type away at your computer now. We ate early, so I had the moment here, and sun is still up in NYC. I have no expectation of a prompt reply, with Shabbat and then Rosh Hashana shortly after. I challeneged you here, but sincerely wish you peace, prayerful hours, and rest in the coming days.
Last edited by BrightRabbit; 09-11-2015 at 05:19 PM..
TFF, what exactly do you know about her conversion? I have a future Sister-in-law who just converted in via Reform, with a year of serious text study, mikvah, beis din (rabbinic court inquiry) asking her very hard questions of faith and motivation. The rituals are identical. Is that then a halachic conversion, or ruled out only because it's under the signature of a Reform rabbi?
I can't believe that you even thought to ask this question.
Of course its because no one other than the Orthodox are able to execute a conversion to TFF.
Correct me if this is more misinformation, but I've heard of people meeting 3x in the office of an Orthodox rabbi, getting the nod, and over to the mikvah.
I have never heard anything of that sort. Conversion under Orthodox auspices usually takes at least a full calendar year. In fact, I have seen it take that long even for someone who had lived as an observant Jew, thinking she was Jewish from childhood (she found that her grandmother's conversion was not Orthodox). Essays are required, readings, meetings, classes, and changing the way one lives his or her life.
So, if I have this straight, her brother is doing distinctly better than your family average and her family average. I'm taking a guess that the reason your BIL does not realize his future kids' status is because neither you nor your wife has discussed it with him, either because his fiancee is such a gem, because it's not your place to do so, or both. Either reason could serve as a hint as to what to do here (nothing?), or possibly even a reason for you and your wife each to review his/her attitude towards the whole thing. FWIW, it sounds like Reform congregations are going to regard the kids as Jewish. You and your wife know better, but what would be your BIL's outlook on this? Are you sure that he doesn't already know what observant Jews think about this? Is there any chance at all that she would be interested in really converting? I know I'm grasping at straws here, but don't forget that he wasn't observant before; why do you think that he would care now?
Just a few thoughts above. I'm certainly not telling you what to think or do, either one.
Best wishes.
Correct, we are not discussing any of this with my BIL or future SIL. It would only create hard feelings. And of the 60+ relatives coming to wedding, my wife, kids and I are the only Torah Observant ones. I'm sure 90% of the relatives it would never occur to them that she is not Jewish. She would never convert because she thinks herself to be Jewish - she thinks she was born Jewish. Her mother "converted" Refo before she was born. In her world, she is Jewish. The Torah obviously says otherwise. And it's not possible to convert to Judaism without committing to observe all 613 mitzvos, which they have no desire to do.
This is tough stuff. It's really forbidden for us to even attend the wedding, as the marriage of a Jew to a non-Jew is an abomination. With heterem (halachic leniencies granted by a qualified Orthodox Rabbi), we can attend. But this is a mess of epic proportions. We stand to stumble into aveiras with the signing of the kesuba. And heck, watching mixed dancing (men and women dancing together in public) is a violation of a mitzva d'araisa (mitzva given directly to the Jewish people in the Torah). We're going to have halachic land mines around us at every turn at this wedding. And my poor children are going to get such mixed messages. Oye, when will our people's terrible exile come to an end?
Correct, we are not discussing any of this with my BIL or future SIL. It would only create hard feelings. And of the 60+ relatives coming to wedding, my wife, kids and I are the only Torah Observant ones. I'm sure 90% of the relatives it would never occur to them that she is not Jewish. She would never convert because she thinks herself to be Jewish - she thinks she was born Jewish. Her mother "converted" Refo before she was born. In her world, she is Jewish. The Torah obviously says otherwise. And it's not possible to convert to Judaism without committing to observe all 613 mitzvos, which they have no desire to do.
This is tough stuff. It's really forbidden for us to even attend the wedding, as the marriage of a Jew to a non-Jew is an abomination. With heterem (halachic leniencies granted by a qualified Orthodox Rabbi), we can attend. But this is a mess of epic proportions. We stand to stumble into aveiras with the signing of the kesuba. And heck, watching mixed dancing (men and women dancing together in public) is a violation of a mitzva d'araisa (mitzva given directly to the Jewish people in the Torah). We're going to have halachic land mines around us at every turn at this wedding. And my poor children are going to get such mixed messages. Oye, when will our people's terrible exile come to an end?
I think that some of your concerns are a bit overblown. The marriage, under halacha (Jewish law), does not exist. It is not an abomination, just not a valid marriage. If you have a heter to attend then there is no concern. You should have demurred when asked to sign the ketuba (marriage contract); if you said "yes" and got yourself stuck in this then that's a head ache of your own making. Watching mixed dancing is not a de'oraisa AFAIK and if you have a sit down with any children and explain the issue before hand, then they can get a fuller understanding than if you try to play catch up afterwards.
There is a lot of hand wringing going on here which (even without a direct confrontation with the family involved) could have been dealt with long ago. At this point, wallowing in righteous indignation helps no one.
Have a happy new year.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
