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Just a couple of points to clarify , there seems to be some confusion regarding terms.
“Soft” water is soft because of what it does NOT contain, not because of what it does contain. “Hardness” is the presence of calcium and magnesium ions in the water. As their concentrations increase, water becomes harder. The combined concentration of calcium and magnesium is frequently referred to as total hardness. This is slightly different than “temporary” hardness which is somewhat more complex and wherein the total hardness can be reduced by boiling the water causing the various cations of calcium and magnesium to be precipitated out, thus softening the water. Permanent hardness is simply the hardness that is not removed by boiling, and is the type of hardness that we anticipate being present in our city water.
Hard water is not healthier than soft water; soft water is no healthier than hard. Water that is made soft through a “water softener” that uses ion exchange columns replace the calcium and magnesium with sodium ions (salt is consumed in the process and this is where the misconception that the salt must be going into the water … not true). PURE water is actually VERY bad for us, (humans) and should not be consumed. The osmotic pressure produced by pure water wreaks havoc on our epithelial cells, and our electrolyte balance. Human homeostasis is happy with certain “contaminants” and in particular various dissolved solids, salts, and other “minerals.”
In soft water, soap scum will not form properly, and you feel like you can’t get soap of your skin when bathing – this is because you really can’t. Hard water helps to form soap scum (that is actually a scientific term) and helps to rinse the soap from your clothing.
As a brewer, while trying to make different styles of beer, I will adjust the hardness of the water - sometimes I need to increase the hardness for some styles, and sometimes I need to soften the hardness. If you are interested in that sort of thing, you can check out some of my beer recipes here:
Your water from a city source can actually vary from hour to hour. Most water districts try to set ranges for various parameters. However, I have seen many cases where the ranges can be very wide indeed. Single-home well water tends to be a little more stable in most cases.
One cannot filter out hardness. Although different references may use different scales to classify the hardness of water, in general, the following is fairly common and is expressed as milligrams of dissolved calcium carbonate per liter of water (mg/l):
0-25 mg/l CaCO3 is very soft
25-75 mg/l CaCO3 is soft
75-150 mg/l CaCO3 is moderately hard
150-300 mg/l CaCO3 is hard
300 mg/l CaCO3 is very hard
Charcoal filters are carbon filters – the charcoal is just “activated” and we refer to it as “activated carbon.” Carbon filters will NOT necessarily remove chlorine since, as I described in an earlier post, the chlorine can be present in a complex number of ways.
I’m not sure what the poster called “rfb” is referring to, but reverse osmosis is extremely efficient, and there is no water loss, and it doesn’t waste any water. The R/O systems I am aware of take exactly one gallon of water, and deliver exactly one gallon of water.
Each filtering system has advantages and disadvantages. Not all filters are capable of removing all contaminants. Water softeners using ion exchange do not “remove” any “contaminants” they merely exchange one kind of contaminant for another.
Again, most water districts will analyze and interpret your water for free. They will also interpret your water analysis for free. If you have well water, you can get a complete water analysis kit for about $50 and check many of the water parameters yourself.
Cheers!
Caoimhín P. Connell
Forensic Industrial Hygienist
(The opinions expressed here are exclusively my personal opinions and do not necessarily reflect my professional opinion, opinion of my employer, agency, peers, or professional affiliates. The above post is for information only and does not reflect professional advice and is not intended to supercede the professional advice of others.)
I am afraid that you are confused about what our posts say. We are taking about "softened" water, not just about "soft" water. Softened water contains salt because the softeners use salt brine to wash away the minerals that stick to the little things that look like noodles in the main softener tank (that is the scientific term for those things). Some of the salt remains on the little noodle things and some of the brine remains in the tank. Thus, softened water does contain salt. Try testing it sometime, or just water your plants with it and watch them die. A little of the salt is consumed in the process, a lot of salt is washed into the sewer system and some remains in your tank and on the noodles. another scientific test - pick up one of the noodles after a cycle and taste it. It is extremely salty.
So while you are correct in discussing soft water in general, all softened water contains salt/sodium or potassium and is therefore less healthy to drink than some kinds of hard water. Further, hard water contains minerals like iron and calcium that most people need and do not get enough of. Softening removes those minerals. For this reason, many people prefer to drink hard water and get some of the minerals that they need this way.
I’m not sure what the poster called “rfb” is referring to, but reverse osmosis is extremely efficient, and there is no water loss, and it doesn’t waste any water. The R/O systems I am aware of take exactly one gallon of water, and deliver exactly one gallon of water.
This doesn't match with what I've been told or read. I did a quick search on reverse osmosis. From Wikipedia:
Quote:
Reverse osmosis units sold for residential purposes offer water filtration at the cost of large quantities of waste water. For every 5 gallons of output, a typical residential reverse osmosis filter will send around 10 - 20 gallons of water down the drain (although many people capture it and use it for watering plants and lawns).
So while you are correct in discussing soft water in general, all softened water contains salt/sodium or potassium and is therefore less healthy to drink than some kinds of hard water. Further, hard water contains minerals like iron and calcium that most people need and do not get enough of. Softening removes those minerals. For this reason, many people prefer to drink hard water and get some of the minerals that they need this way.
Hello Coldjensens!
I got your point, thank you for clarifying.
Not all softeners use salt, or the same mechanisms. For example, in one of my labs (which was a water lab), we used a combination anion/cation exchange column to soften the water. The cation column exchanged calcium and magnesium with hydrogen (H+) and the anion column exchanged the chloride and other anions with hydroxyl groups (OH-).
The result was that the “minerals” including salt were removed, and replaced with H+-OH, which is of course is H2O (water). So the upshot was that one actually got more water out of the system than one put into the system.
If the water softener exchanges Ca and Mg with Na, and there is an anion column (or a leak) and the anions are exchanged with Cl, then salt will certainly be introduced.
It just depends on the system. My point was that soft water, and/or softened water does not necessarily contain more salt than hard water.
Finally, not all softeners will remove iron, and also, there are no published peer reviewed papers known to me that have demonstrated that drinking softened water or soft water or hardened water or hard water poses any known health effects. If you have some valid scientific data that supports the argument that drinking softened water is less healthy, I would be keen to see it. Otherwise, you point is well taken.
Cheers!
Caoimhín P. Connell
Forensic Industrial Hygienist
(The opinions expressed here are exclusively my personal opinions and do not necessarily reflect my professional opinion, opinion of my employer, agency, peers, or professional affiliates. The above post is for information only and does not reflect professional advice and is not intended to supercede the professional advice of others.)
I had a representative from a water filter company come over my house and test the water running through my kitchen faucet. He told me that the water from the local reservoir (Lake Lavon) in my area contains very high levels of chlorine.
His company offers a whole house water system for $6000. I didnt doubt his company's credibility or that the water running through my pipes is hard, but I decided to check online for some other options.
I found a certified water filter company online that sells the whole house filter for $799. I just need to get a licensed plumber to install it.
It seems like a good deal but does anyone have any experiences with buying and/or having any of these whole-house filters installed? Does that water taste any better?
Don't waste your money! We had one of those representatives come by and promised they would service it and all that crap. We did because our water is really hard and tastes nasty. Well that was $4000 flushed down the toilet! The salt stuff in it needed to be changed yearly and when he didn't call back, we called the company. They couldn't do anything since we couldn't find the guy who sold it to us. What a waste! We bought a Pur faucet filter and it works great for a lot less.
Not all softeners use salt, or the same mechanisms. For example, in one of my labs (which was a water lab), we used a combination anion/cation exchange column to soften the water. The cation column exchanged calcium and magnesium with hydrogen (H+) and the anion column exchanged the chloride and other anions with hydroxyl groups (OH-).
The result was that the “minerals” including salt were removed, and replaced with H+-OH, which is of course is H2O (water). So the upshot was that one actually got more water out of the system than one put into the system.
Wow. No idea what those words and letters mean, but the results are fantastic. A revolution in water treatment? Put that on the market fast. When you make your first billion please send me 10% (How about just because I am a nice guy and I have a lot of kids to put through college?).
By the way, you might know, do those magnetic softening systems really work? I looked into those a while back. I concluded that they were probably a scam. I found some article that said that the original government experiment seemed to work, but the magnetic field that it needed was huge and required equipment that was as big as a house. Supposedly, the magnetic field aligns the polarity of the particles that make up minerals and although the water remains hard, the minerals will not stick to anything, so it is not really a softener, but an alternative to softening.
I have seen articles that state that drinking softened water is a health threat. The salt causes hypertension (hyppotension?) or somehow increases the risk of heart attacks. I cannot remember the details. What I remember is seeing several articles stating softened water = salt = bad for you. I did a lot of research on this when we were first looking into what systems to install. However once we made a decision, I forget all of the details. besides I have really really low blood pressure and really low cholesterol (so does my family), so I never viewed it as a big threat.
I also had a problem with houseplants that kept dying. I took them to a nursery and they tested the soil and asked if i was watering with softened water. they sad that the salt from softened water builds up int he soil and kills the plants. They suggested either watering with non-softened water or soaking the soil once a month in a bucket of non-softened water. I chose the former solution and it worked. Later a scam salesman trying to sell me a water softener at an absurd price told me that the salt would kill houseplants. he did know a lot about water treatment, but much of what he said was exaggerated, including the price of his product.
I do remember that the potassium is supposed to be better, but is a very serious threat to people with a specific health condition that I cannot remember. There is no way that I could recall where I found these articles. Most likely in health type magazines, or in home/builder magazines. I know that the one about potassium was pretty recent (past ten years) and was part of an article about the popularity of using potassium rather than salt and what the benefits and downsides are. The article mentioned that many cities in California have outlawed salt based softeners because of the salt discharge. They were still debating whether to allow potassium systems. Overall Potassium was said to be better for most people's health, more expensive, and less efficient.
We decided to stay with salt since the softener that we ended up buying uses very little. Besides we were not drinking the softened water.
I am pretty sure that the information on the hazards of softened water first came out years ago. My parents had a hard water spigot in our house because of the health risk of softened water (this was in the 1970s). I also remember that we did a thing on it in high school. We brought in our water and did some experiment to see how much salt was in it. It really was not all that much compared to say a salt water gargle, but a lot more than the hard water. I think we tested sweat too and the salt content of sweat was higher. (We tested something else I think sweat, but not sure. Kind of gross to think about how we would have collected so much sweat). It is very hard to remember that was 27 or so years ago.
The article on potassium discussed the health risks of salt, maybe it has some links if you can find it.
Sorry I am not much help. I have a good memory of facts and basic concepts, but details are pretty much limited to mid term or short memory for me.
Another question from your previous post. We live outside of Detroit which supposedly has the cleanest water of any municipality. therefore, we have not yet bothered to hook up the filter that we bought and did nto install a charcoal cannister. We just drink water from the tap. However this past week, the chlorine levels are so high that I can smell it from six feet away and I can smell the chlorine form a shower pretty much everywhere in the house. We probably no longer need to add bleach to our laundry when washing whites. Probably does not hurt anything since about 4 million people drink the same water, but the smell really bothers me. I am very sensitive to smells. Either the smell or the actual chlorine makes it taste funny too. I am not real interested in drinking all that chlorine.
I tried leaving the water out all night in a cup because I heard that most of the chlorine will dissipate or evaporate, but it did little good. Still had a cup of Clorox in the morning. The Britta filter pitcher seems to remove it, or maybe it just does not smell/taste as strong when it is chilled.
Are you saying that a charcoal cannister will not remove the chlorine? Will an R/O filter remove it?
do you know anything about a system called that uses electricity to change the Mg and Ca?? Similar to what the previous poster said about magnetic systems - it is supposed to leave the Mg and Ca in the water, but change its ability to bind and cause scale/deposits.
they systems cost about 2x what a typical home residential salt system would cost - so a bigger investment, but not a ridiculous investment. I don't care for the idea of the salt systems (for the previously mentioned reasons) - but if we don't treat the water at all, we are dooming our hot-water heater, dishwasher, etc.. to shortened lifespans.
The salt stuff in it needed to be changed yearly and when he didn't call back, we called the company. They couldn't do anything since we couldn't find the guy who sold it to us. What a waste! We bought a Pur faucet filter and it works great for a lot less.
We add salt a whole lot more than annually to our water softener. How often depends on how hard your water is. But every residential water softener I've seen requires you to add salt to a container periodically so that the resin (which is what is used in softening the water) can be refreshed. We buy our salt in 40lb bags, each of which costs about $4, and have a container that holds about 200-250lbs. I haven't got a clue how we actually use - I just add as the salt gets used up. But I know I add salt a whole lot more than once a year.
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