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Old 08-05-2012, 05:13 PM
dgz dgz started this thread
 
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If you have get a new 16 Seer condenser (and coil) but do not upgrade your gas furnace (can't do this for at least a few more years), will you still get much better efficiency than if you got a new *13* Seer condenser?
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Old 08-05-2012, 05:16 PM
 
Location: Knoxville
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SEER rating is for air conditioners.
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Old 08-05-2012, 06:03 PM
dgz dgz started this thread
 
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Sorry, that's what I meant, a 16 seer cooling unit vs 13 seer... If you have an outside unit that is 16 seer--with coil/furnace/etc in attic, will it still work more efficiently than a 13 Seer unit while working with an older furnace (gas-powered)? However, doing some further googling, I found the answer to my question, which is no.
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Old 08-05-2012, 07:07 PM
 
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dgz, can you please post the link where you found the NO answer. I've been planning to upgrade just my condenser from 13 seer to 16 seer in a few months. I'm surprised that doing so wont make my entire system work more efficiently. Thanks.
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Old 08-05-2012, 07:31 PM
 
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Sure it will. You won't be getting the efficiency you'd normally get from the fan motor in the new furnace but there's not a huge difference in power usage unless your old motor is going bad which it could be.

Your furnace on a new 16 SEER system will just be the air mover in the system. The part where you're saving money from upgrading to a 13 SEER or 16 SEER system is in the compression ratios to do the work you need done. The older systems 12 SEER and below used a higher compression ratio than the newer system that have higher SEER ratings.

They basically do this by putting a smaller compressor matched to larger coils. Where the old system (10 SEER) would have a saturation point for the evaporator that was 35° below indoor temperatures the newer system will be 30° for 13 SEER and about 25° for a 16 SEER system.

The older systems (10 SEER and even greater for any SEER less than that) would have a saturation point for the condenser which is about 30° above outdoor ambient. The newer systems will have a saturation point for the condenser which is about 25° outdoor ambient (13 SEER) and 20° above outdoor ambient (16 SEER).

Let's say it's 75°F inside and 95°F outside.
__________________________________________________ ____________________________
10 SEER pressures R-22:
Evap. saturation point - 68.56 psig (gauge pressure)
Condensing saturation point - 278 psig

To find the compression ratio you'd add your atmospheric pressure for your location but for this example we'll use sea level.

68.56 psig + 14.7 psi (atmospheric pressure at sea level) = 83.26 psia (absolute pressure
278 psig + 14.7 psi = 292.7 psia

292.7/83.26 = 1:3.52 compression ration
__________________________________________________ _____________________________
16 SEER pressures R-410a:

Evap. saturation point - 144 psig (gauge pressure)
Condensing saturation point - 390 psig

144 psig + 14.7 psi (atmospheric pressure at sea level) = 158.7 psia (absolute pressure
390 psig + 14.7 psi = 404.7 psia

404.7/158.7 = 1:2.55 compression ratio

The R-410a system is obviously using less power to do the same work.
__________________________________________________ _____________________________

Anyways, the important thing to remember is that you need your furnace to move the desired volume of air to be able to achieve those SEER ratings. That calculation is 400 cubic feet of air per minute per ton of refrigeration.

Your 4 ton system needs to move 1600 CFM. You might want to ask them to verify that your furnace is doing that presently before you go installing a new HVAC system without a new furnace. As in almost all cases I've seen the previous contractors didn't do any sort of detailed duct calculations to match the heat load calculations. The return vents are usually undersized and the supply vents are usually not the correct size for a balanced system.

For example to get a 400 feet per minute face velocity from a single return grille with 1/3" spacing it would need to be about a 30" x 30" return grille with has an Ak (effective area) of 4.363 sq ft.

You can find that data here:
http://www.hartandcooley.com/enginee...a/pg%20110.pdf

Last edited by BigJon3475; 08-05-2012 at 07:51 PM..
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Old 08-05-2012, 07:32 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by texasfirewheel View Post
dgz, can you please post the link where you found the NO answer. I've been planning to upgrade just my condenser from 13 seer to 16 seer in a few months. I'm surprised that doing so wont make my entire system work more efficiently. Thanks.
Are you looking at replacing just your condenser and attaching it to your current coil?
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Old 08-05-2012, 07:41 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BigJon3475 View Post
Are you looking at replacing just your condenser and attaching it to your current coil?

I'm so ignorant about this kind of stuff. I had a whole new system installed 18 months ago. I got taken big-time and paid $9,000 for a Lenox 13ACX and attic unit (no new ductwork). My house is only 1200 sq ft. I didnt realize that 13 seer wasnt really efficient until I did some reading. I changed A/C guys and now have someone who's very trustworthy -- so I was planning on having the 13 seer changed out for a more-efficient 16 seer this winter.

I dont know anything about HAVC; I'm willing to have replaced whatever will make my unit more efficient.
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Old 08-05-2012, 07:49 PM
 
29,939 posts, read 39,450,111 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by texasfirewheel View Post
I'm so ignorant about this kind of stuff. I had a whole new system installed 18 months ago. I got taken big-time and paid $9,000 for a Lenox 13ACX and attic unit (no new ductwork). My house is only 1200 sq ft. I didnt realize that 13 seer wasnt really efficient until I did some reading. I changed A/C guys and now have someone who's very trustworthy -- so I was planning on having the 13 seer changed out for a more-efficient 16 seer this winter.

I dont know anything about HAVC; I'm willing to have replaced whatever will make my unit more efficient.
What makes you think it's inefficient?

I'm trying to figure out how you're not seeing any difference in power usage which you should be if it was installed correctly.
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Old 08-05-2012, 08:55 PM
 
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I had an energy audit done by my electricity provider, who advised that the 13 seer was causing my unit to work harder than a 16 seer would.

And, although I have the temp set much higher than I did with the previous unit, this new one seems to be cycling on just as often, and running just as long (or longer), as the previous one did.
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Old 08-05-2012, 09:29 PM
dgz dgz started this thread
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BigJon3475 View Post
Are you looking at replacing just your condenser and attaching it to your current coil?
No, I'm looking at replacing my condenser and getting a new coil Then, these would work with my current furnace which has about 8-10 years of life left on it. I was talking with an hvac person today who informed me that if I use a cooling unit that is 13 seer, then it will be fine working with my current single-flow furnace. I'll get about 13 seer from the whole system. However, if I get a 16 seer unit, for it to perform at 16 seer, I would also need to replace my furnace with a new multi-variable flow furnace; otherwise the 16 seer unit will produce an efficiency that is more like 13 seer.
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