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We will be getting estimates but I was wondering if anyone could give me a ballpark as to what upgrading an electrical system in a home would cost?
Currently, the ~1,300 sq ft 4/2 San Francisco Bay Area home has a 100 amp service that we'd like to bring up to 200 amp. None of the outlets in the home are grounded. None of the outlets in the baths, kitchen, or outside are GFCI. We are also thinking of adding some additional outlets in the unfinished garage and in the kitchen. The house has a crawl space.
When I get the estimates are there things in particular I should be looking for? Any questions I should be asking? I normally check out businesses with the BBB, is there somewhere else I should also be looking for tradespeople?
Your home is similar to mine, ungrounded receptacles and absence of GCFI's with the exception that my home is 3/2. In my case I did the upgrade myself, but when looking for someone to do it, it depends on whether the contractor will buy the parts or the customer. That's one of the things to think about. If you buy all your own materials for the job then all you will pay is the labor. Some of their estimates includes both parts and labor. Depending on the complexity of the job, it could be around $2K for starters. And that will also depend on the condition of the existing wiring and whether the whole place has to be redone or not. To bring it up to code, it may cost alot more, maybe in the $3K range, but it really depends on the contractor doing the job and making sure they're licensed and have reliable business references.
Sounds like a total upgrade similar to new construction. Depending on the age of the wire and type, (like only 2 wire in the bundle with no ground included) all the wire might have to be replaced also.
Yeah, figure material costs somewhere in the $2-3K area. Labor will vary depending on area, job particulars.
One good way to get a handle and have the same understanding. Get a pad of yellow Post-It sticky notes. Walk thru the house prior to having the electrician do the estimate, stick a Post-It where every switch should be (mark it one-way, three way, four way, etc), you may want to change how things work from the present layout. Most older abodes did not have enough 3 or 4 way switches. Also do the same for receptacles in each room, then for any new thing like additional lightning. Do the walk thru yourself a couple of times over different days, discuss it with everybody involved. Once you are happy put a lil summary note inside every room to make it easy to get the right count by room. Include all existing loads if not in the Post It summary, so the circuit count is an accurate total as it will be wired and quoted.
Ensure they provide a big enough main service panel with a good amount of spare circuits. Your lil walk thru notes will help the dudes get the proper numbers per room and determine exactly how many circuits will be run without making any drawings / diagrams. Also helps to keep everybody on the same page and avoid any misunderstandings. Leave the sticky notes up for a while, even till work starts.
This is also the time to add anything you do not have. Additional lighting is always nice, I would get plenty of receptacles, things like ceiling fans.
A good rewire job will also tear up the house a bit. Good time to also schedule and plan any type work that also may require getting behind the walls. Nice to plan a redecorate after all work too. Having the freedom to bang the walls and open things up a bit, does allow for a better and faster job.
Educate yourself about the basics of wiring and what to expect. Get a book wih a lot of pictures, be able to discuss it in general terms. Understand what they will run for lighting type circuits. Some electricians will run all #12 wire for all circuits, just makes it easy to stock one type wire, adds a tad to the material costs. Some will run #14 and use 15 amps breakers. All depends on what you want. Is nice to have all circuits at #12 with the potential for going to a 20 amp breaker. Modern shacks tend to suck up a lot more juice in all areas, including lighting type circuits than in the past. Always allow some room for load growth, they are inventing new power sucking gizmos every day.
Get a very clear understanding of what wiring might be reused and exactly where. Same with an present devices, switches, etc. Have them list the number of spare panel slots available after the job is finished. Figure maybe 20-25% is very nice to have, never allow it to be wired using all the panel slots. Think about all the loads presently served, things like heating, cooling, kitchen, washer / dryer / stoves, etc and how they might be improved upgraded. Things like closets that do not presently have lights.
Check out the contractors thru all the normal channels. Check the bulletin boards at electrical supply houses, ask those clerks who are the better electricians. Ask for some references, especially for the type job you are considering, ask the peeps to go see the job. Be sure the quote is complete, to include an estimated start and completion date. They should be willing to detail the circuits room by room duplicating the info of your walk thru. Avoid verbal understandings, if it ain't in writing it is worthless. You should have a total of receptacles, switches, types of loads for the job. Some way of holding them to the scope agreed on. Ask in particular the type of cable to be used for the main service run. I would insist on copper only, pay the price for it.
Get a business card, get their license number, check it that way with your reg folks at the state, see what types of complaints / actions taken against the dude. Just about all states have a system of providing info on contractors and ensuring they hold a valid license at present. Don't be afraid to ask questions but also be knowledgable in the basics.
This also a super good time to get all types of wiring behind the walls. Telephone, cable, computer stuff, surround sound, speakers, on and on. Anything that involves a wire, think about it. Consider getting it done as part of the job.
Awesome idea on the other types of wiring Cosmic, I was thinking along those lines myself, cable and computer networking and such. With the walls open you can do everything you need.
Along the lines of what Cosmic said, you should also consider whether you plan to add a subpanel down the line, and if so be sure to leave future room.
Black and Decker have just came out with their 4th edition on "Guide to Home Wiring". I would recommend picking that up and having a read as it has tons of great photos to help you understand what wiring is all about. It also covers how the service change works too (unlike their 3rd edition which left this info out). And its not that bad, really. As long as you respect it and think safety first, you can work with it with confidence.
Wow, thanks for the detailed responses. Just the information I was looking for. I will definitely head to the library/book store to check out some books on wiring.
Some additional information, the home was built in 1964 and the wiring is (at least for the receptacles I looked at) just two wire. I was assuming this meant running all new wiring.
I was thinking of trying to save some money by purchasing at least some of the wiring and running it to the rough locations myself but I don't know that it would be really worth it. Seems like most of the labor would be in the fishing through the walls and the final connections. I'm also a little concerned that if I do this and cut it too short or long I'd generate extra waste that an electrician wouldn't and erode any savings there might have been.
I've been looking at structured cable on a few sites but I'm not sure where I really want it right now. It does make sense to not have to crawl around and fish wire twice so I'll have to think hard on where exactly everything will be placed.
complete rewire of the house most likely $8k depending on accessibility of the existing system.
level 2 structured cabling system will be around $2k.
usually old work (remodeling) runs at least 200% the cost of new work.
from what some of my san francisco electrical contractor brethren have told me, your area is one of the toughest places to work in terms of permitting, inspections, etc. .
i wouldn't suggest getting contractor recommendations from a supply house. for starters, if you're not a contractor, they usually don't want you in there. and secondly, the salesman has nothing to do with their customers installations and usually has no idea what type of work they do. lastly, every contractor has their preferred supply house. you're only going to get the names of contractors that go to that particular supply house.
i also do not recommend you purchase your own materials for the job. reason #1; you're still going to pay the contractors markup (we include what profit we lost from material sales into the labor if customer supplies material; its just part of doing business and meeting overhead costs), and reason #2, you will be responsible for the warranty work.
in closing, the best person to give you an estimate is a local electrical contractor and not a message board. hope this helps!
I've had 3 service upgrades in Oakland... all with permits. Two I did myself and one I hired a one man shop licensed electrician.
I spent less than $400 ea in materials on the 2 I did. The electrician charged $1500 for one he did. All prices included permits.
Do you really need to rewire the entire home in addition to upgrading the service? I've seen complete rewire and service upgrades cost anywhere from 7 to 12k. Electricians often exclude interior finish work. Paint and drywall can add a lot to the overall job.
I upgraded the services to convert fuse boxes to circuit breakers and provide 220v to laundry rooms.
A modest size home with 100 amp Service is very livable In the Bay Area when you heat with gas, cook with gas, and have a gas dryer.
I lived in a 1200 square foot, 1920's Bay Area home with a single 30 amp fuse for the main and never had a problem due to all the appliances being natural gas... my electric bill was also extremely low
Last edited by Ultrarunner; 11-24-2008 at 06:18 PM..
in closing, the best person to give you an estimate is a local electrical contractor and not a message board. hope this helps!
I completely agree. I just wanted a ballpark figure to look at, some idea of the costs so I don't get ahead of myself. I know they're guesstimates based on no actual knowledge of the specific building. Based on the information previously posted I guessed at it costing around $12K.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultrarunner
Do you really need to rewire the entire home in addition to upgrading the service? I've seen complete rewire and service upgrades cost anywhere from 7 to 12k. Electricians often exclude interior finish work. Paint and drywall can add a lot to the overall job.
I don't know yet. The wire is two conductor and I've been told it's preferred to run new three conductor wire instead of just a ground to the outlets. (Conflicting answers on if it was even legal to do so.) I'll have to see what the electricians say. Thanks for pointing out the finish work. I might have missed that.
I completely agree. I just wanted a ballpark figure to look at, some idea of the costs so I don't get ahead of myself.
well i understand that. its hard to get an accurate estimate though from someone other than electrical contractor in your area. i just don't want you to be surprised or think someone's trying to rip you off when you get a price that's much higher than you get on here, which will most likely happen.
I don't know yet. The wire is two conductor and I've been told it's preferred to run new three conductor wire instead of just a ground to the outlets. (Conflicting answers on if it was even legal to do so.) I'll have to see what the electricians say. Thanks for pointing out the finish work. I might have missed that.
It really depends on your specific building department. Requirements can and do vary from city to city.
Many Bay Area homes from the 60's are wired with a bare copper ground wire attached to each Junction Box. At one time it was common to buy a pack of UL listed ground pigtails to bond the grounded box to the ground screw of a grounded receptacle. Some higher end receptacles achieved a UL listed ground through a bonded receptacle mounting screw without need for the pigtail.
I don't know if I would go through the expense to rewire an entire house unless I was having a problem.
Adding GFCI's to outdoor locations and Bathrooms is a good move and you should be able to add a dedicated circuit or two with ground for your computer room, media center, etc.
My City allows adding GFCI receptacles even where no ground is present. The benefit of the GFCI is greater than not having one... grounded or not.
Have you experienced any problems or been limited with your present service?
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Sounds like you need a total redo........
