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Does anyone know why China didn't make a bigger fuss over Mongolia and allowed it to become independent? Was China not prepared to antagonize the Soviets, who had set up a puppet state in Mongolia?
If China claims Tibet, then why not Mongolia? And I've been told that a Chinese claim over Mongolia is stronger than the one over Tibet. One can argue that Mongolia was a part of China for much of the Manchurian dynasty.
Eatfastnoodle is correct. China was in the midst of a civil war in which, not only Mongolia, and Tibet, but also Xinjiang gained independence at least for a short time.
Because when Mongolia got its independence, China was all messed up with all the civil wars, with all the outside threat (namely, Japan) and domestic political instability (all kind of warlords, Chiang never managed to extend his influence beyond the few provinces around Shanghai, you can say he's nothing more than the strongest warlord.), Mongolia was an afterthought. Tibet, at that time, was de facto independent too.
That was before Mao Zedong led the communist forces to a reunification of the nation, again, Mao faced with a rather unfriendly environment at that time, he wasn't much of a fan of Soviet Union himself, as evidenced by the late break-up in relations between these two nations, and his strong aversion to Soviet style centrally controlled economy (China never had a centrally planned economy like the one Soviet Union used to have, Chinese central government in Beijing, before Deng's reform, only managed to control an significant, but nonetheless, minor portion of the economy, local government at the provincial, municipality, even village/city block level, all had their own companies of various sizes. There was no private enterprise, but the government-controlled economy was highly fragmented and decentralized with governments from the very top to the very down all have their own independently managed companies which local authority controlled the revenue/profit as well as appointed management.The back and forth between central government and local government regarding economic development is always very fun to watch, even today.), but he had to stake a choice in order to win China diplomatic room to maneuver in a world dominated by the US and Soviet Union, and at that time, alliance with Soviet Union was the only game in town, for obvious reasons (it was said that Mao was pretty interested in building up some kind of relationship with the US to counterbalance Soviet Union, we all know what political atmosphere was like back in the 50s in the states, obviously, it wasn't realistic.). So it's unlikely that Mao or China could realistically ask Soviet Union to hand back Mongolia (Back then, Mongolia was essentially an Soviet 16th republic, with probably less independence than countries like Poland or Hungary.) or they could do anything about if Soviet Union rejected their request.
10 years later, after the open spat China had with Soviet Union, Mao indeed indicated that he considered Mongolia's independence as one of the historical grievances that China wanted to settle. But back then, China was obviously the weak side in its competition against Soviet Union, not to mention China also had to deal with an similarly hostile US. So the energy was spent on fending off threat from Soviet Union.
After Deng Xiaoping became Chinese leader, the overwhelming focus was on economic development, creating too much fuss along the border didn't really fit into the grand strategy, to this day, it's still the guiding principle behind Chinese diplomacy. Yeah, deep down, I don't think this whole thing has been completely settled, but China, for the past 100 years also, always had too much in hands to deal with. Independence of Mongolia was unfortunate from Chinese perspective, nonetheless, it's something that could be tolerated. (unlike Taiwan, which is a political and strategical must-have.).
In any case, historically, China practiced a much different game than the kind of nation state based diplomatic game we see today, even when Mongolia was fully under Qing Dynasty's rule, Mongolia was largely autonomous, there was an separate government entity specifically set up with deal with issues between the empire and Mongolia, in essence, Mongolia and China proper, at that time, operated as two largely separate entities under the same empire, of course, with the same authority in military, diplomatic affairs, but other more mundane business was largely left to local tribe-based rule. The relationship was more analogous to the current relationships between Hong Kong, Macau and mainland China than the relationships between Tibet and Beijing.
Anyway, China established a tributary system with itself at the center, this system grew and shrank over time, depending on how China itself was managed, it had expanded its reach deep into central Asia (China directly fought Arab empire over some small central Asian state), and it had reached all countries of South east Asia. These countries were independent in name and in practice, but recognized China's role as sort of an supreme overlord. Basically, these countries largely govern themselves, have their own military and everything, but one order from the emperor could result in the sacking of very important local politician. Sometimes, China directly incorporate these political entities, sometimes, China let these countries go their own way, all depend on the political environment and personal ambition of the emperor and China's own well-being.
For Chinese elite well versed in history, such as Mao Zedong himself, the expanding and shrinking of the border itself ain't particularly new, it happened all the time and had been going on for thousands of years, in exchange for vital support, recognizing Mongolia's independence is well worth the price, in any case, things could change in the future and presently, there was nothing China could do in the face of overwhelming strength of Soviet Union
I don't think so and considering the source, not. They aren't related although they did inter-marry after conquering all Turkic lands. Babur was of Mongol descent.
Then she's not a Magyar. Magyars are "white". If she has heavy Asian features then it's because she's in part descended of Turko-Mongols or Mongols, but that isn't what Magyars look like. Magyars closely resemble Finns and a few tribal groups in Central Asia who are not mongoloid/Asiatic in appearance.
If you want to see what Attila the Hun would have looked like and how he would have spoken, you go to the Csango region in Romania, not the Magyar Republic.
The Mongols quit Europe. There was nothing to gain by invading it.
Europe was a backwater, mostly hicksville. Any city in Asia, the Middle East or North Africa had more wealth than all of Europe.
Europe was dink-towns with no wealth. The terrain wasn't conducive to the style of warfare the Mongols used either. They were used to the steppes and desert/plains areas. Europe was heavily forested with numerous rivers that posed difficulty in crossing, especially if your army is essentially calvary.
Well the Mongols saw there were wealthy cities in Europe at that time in places such as Venice, Rome, Constantinople and Vienna but they did not capture them. But they captured Kiev which was an really important city in Eastern Europe and considered Russia most important city at that time. Infact while Europe was suffering from the Mongal invasions the people there really feared them, and in Rome the Pope in Rome asked for devine deliverance from the Mongal threat.
Yet of course they conqurered Hungary, and much of Poland, however what lead them to leave that area was the death of Ogedei who was the grandson of Genius Khan.The death resulted in no true unity of the Mongal empire so the Mongols just left places such as Hungary and Poland. But of course the Mongals after they retreated from Poland and Hungary they continued to occupy some parts of European Russia. Plus even there other areas of European Russia that were not occupied by the Mongols but were
But the only part of the world there was some alliance between the European powers and the Mongals was the middle east as there were Europeans where where the crusaders occupied enclaves there, and they welcomed the Mongal advance in order to weaken the muslim states that were fighting against the crusaders. Infact European crusader armies assisted in the mongol destruction of Bagdad, which was the capital of a muslim empire at that time.
Last edited by other99; 01-27-2010 at 09:29 PM..
Reason: edit
Because when Mongolia got its independence, China was all messed up with all the civil wars, with all the outside threat (namely, Japan) and domestic political instability (all kind of warlords, Chiang never managed to extend his influence beyond the few provinces around Shanghai, you can say he's nothing more than the strongest warlord.), Mongolia was an afterthought. Tibet, at that time, was de facto independent too.
That was before Mao Zedong led the communist forces to a reunification of the nation, again, Mao faced with a rather unfriendly environment at that time, he wasn't much of a fan of Soviet Union himself, as evidenced by the late break-up in relations between these two nations, and his strong aversion to Soviet style centrally controlled economy (China never had a centrally planned economy like the one Soviet Union used to have, Chinese central government in Beijing, before Deng's reform, only managed to control an significant, but nonetheless, minor portion of the economy, local government at the provincial, municipality, even village/city block level, all had their own companies of various sizes. There was no private enterprise, but the government-controlled economy was highly fragmented and decentralized with governments from the very top to the very down all have their own independently managed companies which local authority controlled the revenue/profit as well as appointed management.The back and forth between central government and local government regarding economic development is always very fun to watch, even today.), but he had to stake a choice in order to win China diplomatic room to maneuver in a world dominated by the US and Soviet Union, and at that time, alliance with Soviet Union was the only game in town, for obvious reasons (it was said that Mao was pretty interested in building up some kind of relationship with the US to counterbalance Soviet Union, we all know what political atmosphere was like back in the 50s in the states, obviously, it wasn't realistic.). So it's unlikely that Mao or China could realistically ask Soviet Union to hand back Mongolia (Back then, Mongolia was essentially an Soviet 16th republic, with probably less independence than countries like Poland or Hungary.) or they could do anything about if Soviet Union rejected their request.
10 years later, after the open spat China had with Soviet Union, Mao indeed indicated that he considered Mongolia's independence as one of the historical grievances that China wanted to settle. But back then, China was obviously the weak side in its competition against Soviet Union, not to mention China also had to deal with an similarly hostile US. So the energy was spent on fending off threat from Soviet Union.
After Deng Xiaoping became Chinese leader, the overwhelming focus was on economic development, creating too much fuss along the border didn't really fit into the grand strategy, to this day, it's still the guiding principle behind Chinese diplomacy. Yeah, deep down, I don't think this whole thing has been completely settled, but China, for the past 100 years also, always had too much in hands to deal with. Independence of Mongolia was unfortunate from Chinese perspective, nonetheless, it's something that could be tolerated. (unlike Taiwan, which is a political and strategical must-have.).
In any case, historically, China practiced a much different game than the kind of nation state based diplomatic game we see today, even when Mongolia was fully under Qing Dynasty's rule, Mongolia was largely autonomous, there was an separate government entity specifically set up with deal with issues between the empire and Mongolia, in essence, Mongolia and China proper, at that time, operated as two largely separate entities under the same empire, of course, with the same authority in military, diplomatic affairs, but other more mundane business was largely left to local tribe-based rule. The relationship was more analogous to the current relationships between Hong Kong, Macau and mainland China than the relationships between Tibet and Beijing.
Anyway, China established a tributary system with itself at the center, this system grew and shrank over time, depending on how China itself was managed, it had expanded its reach deep into central Asia (China directly fought Arab empire over some small central Asian state), and it had reached all countries of South east Asia. These countries were independent in name and in practice, but recognized China's role as sort of an supreme overlord. Basically, these countries largely govern themselves, have their own military and everything, but one order from the emperor could result in the sacking of very important local politician. Sometimes, China directly incorporate these political entities, sometimes, China let these countries go their own way, all depend on the political environment and personal ambition of the emperor and China's own well-being.
For Chinese elite well versed in history, such as Mao Zedong himself, the expanding and shrinking of the border itself ain't particularly new, it happened all the time and had been going on for thousands of years, in exchange for vital support, recognizing Mongolia's independence is well worth the price, in any case, things could change in the future and presently, there was nothing China could do in the face of overwhelming strength of Soviet Union
Wow, thanks. I'm tempted to ask about Korean independence, since Korea's relationship with China was similar to Tibet's with China.
Note: China considered their culture their last line of defense. They assumed anyone who conquered them would become Chinese. Thus, they viewed the Mongolian invasion as Mongolia becoming a part of China, not the other way around.
you always have some great postings on here as i always enjoy reading them however .... that super HUGE post you wrote is hard as heck to read as i wished you use paragraphs to break it up.
Maybe avid book reader and moderator Trudyrose can give a synopsis about it .
Trudy would not attempt to do that...she would probably mess up a very interesting and informative post
Horde/Orda - The name of the Russian army
The epoch of Gold Ordy/Orda differed that, along with the secular power, there was a strong military power. There were two governors: secular, named as the prince, and the military person "khan", that is "military leader". Probably to find such report In annals: «Were together with Tatars, and brodnik , voevoda "in them was it....», it is headed armies Horde/Orda. Brodniki - are the Russian free belligerent parties, predecessors of Cossacks. " ...
.... Scientists have drawn a conclusion that the Horde is a name of Russian regular army (like «Red Army»). And Tataro-Mongolija - itself Great Rus. It turns out that any not "Mongols", namely Russian have subdued huge territory from Silent to Atlantic ocean and from Arctic to Indian. ...
... Khan Genghis - it prince Jaroslev is. The second name - Chingis with a prefix "khan" who meant "military leader", was simple in it. Baty - his son Alexander (Nevskiy). Probably to find such phrase In manuscripts: «Alexander Dzheroslevich Nevsky , a nickname: Baty». By the way, according to the description of contemporaries, Khan Baty- it was fair-haired, a light beard and easy eye . The khan has broken participants of crusaderon lake Chudsky ...
... In the beginning of a XVIII-th century Peter 1 has based the Russian Academy of Sciences. On historical branch of Academy of sciences for 120 years of its existence , there were 33 academicians-historians. From them only three Russian, including M.V.Lomonosov, the others - Germans. The history of Ancient Russia prior to the beginning of a XVII-th century was written by Germans, and someone from them at all did not know Russian! This fact well-known to professional historians, but they do not put any efforts attentively , what history was written by Germans...
... It is known that M.V.Lomonosov wrote history of Rusi and had constant disputes with German academicians. After death of Lomonosov its archives have completely disappeared. But. Its works on stories Rusi, but under Miller's edition have been published. Miller poisoned M.V.Lomonosovs in a life. Stories Rusi - falsification, it the computer analysis has shown the works of Lomonosov published by Miller. From Lomonosov in them is not enough .
As a result there is no present history. Germans of a House of Romanovs have hammered into heads :That rus is not able to work , that it the drunkard and the eternal slave.
The comment to Violetta Basha's article «the Tataro-Mongolian invasion was not» or: «That has not noticed the author at studying of Russian history?»
GLADILIN Evgenie Aleksandrovich,
The chairman of the council, founders of the Krasnodar regional welfare fund of veterans ВДВ Â«the Native land and Honour», Anapa.
To the "trouble" which has comprehended Russia. But is not present words about «invasion Mongols».
There are more many strangenesses. In the story «about malicious Tatars» the khan from Golden Horde - orders to execute the Russian prince-Christian... refusal to bow «to pagan god of Slavs!» And in some annals surprising phrases, for example, the such contain: «Well, good luck!» - Has crossed and has gone on ....
... Why among tataro-Mongols of suspiciously many Christians? And descriptions of princes and soldiers unusually: annals assert that the majority of them were the European type, had not narrow, but the big grey or blue eyes and a fair hair...
... «The same year . Alexander Jaroslavich again went to the Horde. Also has returned in capital Vladimir and began to reign on a throne of the father. Also there was a pleasure in Vladimir, both in Suzdal, and on all earth Russian. To grand duke Alexander Jaroslavichu ambassadors from the Pope with such speech in those days came:« we Heard in our earth that you the prince worthy both nice and your earth are great. Therefore have sent to you two cardinals - listen to their manuals!» It is visible, speeches of ambassadors have found a fertile field if Alexander began to listen to them. After some years on road from the Horde Alexander accepts in Gorodtse the special form inohcestvo for the high-ranking persons with Alex's name and "dies" for the world at forty-year age. Two years earlier in the Horde at khan Berg the Christianity is accepted and the diocese by bishop Cyril for the turned Tatars is founded. After acceptance of Christianity by "hero-athlete" by Tatar Bugoj in 1262 has begun mass Christianisation the Tatar earths of the south of the European part, modern Russia. The Vedical Culture was eradicated by fire and a sword. People part, escaping from Christian expansion, has accepted Islam. In 1380 in the field of Kulikovo under black banners with bones left Dmitry Ivanovich Moskovsky. Tsar Mamaj left under red banners and white banners. Fight in the earths Ryazan, the earths polovets informs annals "Zadonshchina". A difficult minute khan Mamaj in an environment of the boyars and esauls has addressed to the Gods of Perun and Hors, both helpers to Salavat and Magomet.
Christianity not always considered as the blessing even in official annals. In one annals Mongols are not mentioned, them at that time in Russia yet did not know. Even in the end of 19 century in «Tserkovno - the historical dictionary» under Petrov's edition is told: «Mongols - the same that Tatars - an Ugrian tribe, inhabitants of Siberia, ancestors of Hungarians, founders Ugrian or Hungarian Rusi,».
Taiwan is just now finally getting around to the task of realizing Mongolia as a separate country itself, and not a part of its own sovereign land. Taiwan Review
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