"The only thing new in the world is the history you don't know." Harry S. Truman (war, general)

[xiansheng_g]

Generally speaking revisionist history, especially its fringe elements, isn't well regarded throughout the hallowed halls of academia and with the public at large. Mention Howard Zinn's A Peoples History of the United States, James W. Loewen's Lies Across America, Paul Johnson's Modern Times, David Halberstam's, The Best and The Brightest or even General Smedley Butler's pamphlet War is a Racket as testaments of historical reality you'll be met with surprise, shock, disgust and outright indignation. However, there are several, if not many well read CDF members that bring interesting historical perspective for discussion on this board, and I would like to contribute with this topic as such: rat lines. Rat lines were escape conduits by which members of the Nazi high command used at the close of World War II to avoid arrest by the Allies in Europe. Supposedly, the Nazis built submarine bases throughout Latin America and Southeast Asia specifically for this intended purpose. One other thing, in a recently published book, which I have not read, the author claims that Hitler didn't kill himself on April 30, 1945, but escaped via a rat line to Indonesia and lived peacefully for a considerable number of years.

Here are some well documented facts to consider: a) the specter of a Fourth Reich existed in parts of South America and elsewhere well into the 1960s, b) at the close of World War II our very own intelligence agencies helped to secure former Nazis passage to North America, and c) Wall Street financial firms and US industry actively had business interest with Nazi Germany before and during the war.

So, do you believe that Adolf Hitler and his wife Eva Braun committed suicide April 30, 1945 in their Berlin bunker or escaped alive to a places safe and secure for the remainder of their lives? Why or why not?


Hitler's Escape - YouTube

[ovcatto]

Originally Posted by xiansheng_g

So, do you believe that Adolf Hitler and his wife Eva Braun committed suicide April 30, 1945 in their Berlin bunker or escaped alive to a places safe and secure for the remainder of their lives? Why or why not?

I find impossible to believe that a person with Hitler's level of psychosis and egomania could ever accept or even attempt to live a quiet and obscure life in some South American hacienda or anywhere else for that matter.

So what would have been Hitler's options?

We know, factually, that Hitler refuse the advice and urging of his inner circle to even withdraw from Berlin, or that in the final days it would have even been possible for the most wanted and recognized man in the world to have escaped the Soviet encirclement, only a few hundred yards away, of his bunker under the Chancellery.

Considering that, only Eichmann eluded capture until 1962 and Martin Boreman whose death while reported by Artur Axmann but never confirmed, none of the top leaders of the Nazi Party or military escaped capture. For Hitler to have been the lone Nazi leader to evade capture seems, at least to me, the most implausible idea that I can think of.

[NJGOAT]

Originally Posted by xiansheng_g

Here are some well documented facts to consider: a) the specter of a Fourth Reich existed in parts of South America and elsewhere well into the 1960s,

I don't see where it was "well documented" that the specter of a Fourth Reich existed in South America. There is much speculation over the extent of ODESSA or even whether or not such an organization even existed. While US intelligence organizations and the military suspected that ODESSA existed, the vast majority of primary sources point to it not being nearly as organized and planned as what ODESSA and the "Fourth Reich" would imply by the conspriacy theories.

Essentially, the "well documented" historical record would point to various members of the SS being aided in escape by multiple organizations and the general chaos after the war to get to places that would be friendly to them, or they could disappear in. Former SS men have been found all over the world living in secret and not-so-secret ways from the United States to South America, the Middle East and Asia.

b) at the close of World War II our very own intelligence agencies helped to secure former Nazis passage to North America, and

Absolutely true and some of them were certainly guilty of crimes against humanity. However, those secured by the US all had a lot to offer in terms of fighting the brewing Cold War and providing scientific and technological expertise. The US did not engage in a wholesale movement of Nazi's to safety in North America. What they did was allow the ones who had something to offer us use their knowledge in exchange for avoiding prosecution.

c) Wall Street financial firms and US industry actively had business interest with Nazi Germany before and during the war.

This is one of the most oft quoted things and the reality is really far different. The US as well as many other nations and their corporations were heavily invested in Weimar Germany and many German firms had businesses in other nations. What is missing from this is that the German government actively siezed assets of foreign corporations in Germany in the lead up to the war. For instance, Opel was owned by GM from 1929, but was nationalized by the German government in 1940. GM regained their ownership in 1948.

One of the other "proofs" for these kinds of things is Union Banking Corporation that Prescott Bush (W's grandfather) was a shareholder/director in. The bank was owned by Thyssen, a leading German industrialist and early Nazi supporter. Of course, what isn't usually associated with that fact is that Thyssen disavowed the Nazi party and Hitler in 1938 following Kristallnacht, fled and was later arrested in 1940 and spent the war in a sanitarium or concentration camp. The assets of Union Banking were siezed by the US government in early 1942 since it had connections to German industry.

When you really look into the trail of how the various industries, banks and investment firms were tied up with the Nazi's, you will see that it is not nearly as damning a case as people try to make it out to be and any assets owned by those corporations were nationalized or had their assets transferred to an AG during the war.

So, do you believe that Adolf Hitler and his wife Eva Braun committed suicide April 30, 1945 in their Berlin bunker or escaped alive to a places safe and secure for the remainder of their lives? Why or why not?

I believe Hitler and Eva Braun died in the bunker. The reason is pretty clear, the people who were there said he did and there is ample evidence that they all tried to convince him to flee Berlin and seek safety in the Alps, similar to where Goering went. Beyond that, I find it virtually impossible that Hitler with all of his mental issues and drug dependencies, which are very well documented could have stayed hidden for so long. Further, unlike the people who did escape, Hitler's face was widely known and even if he shaved his moustache and changed his hair, etc. I doubt he would go unrecognized for very long.

[diogenes2]

Stories of Hitler's escape to Paraguay and other exotic places make for tantalizing copy, but have little basis in fact. It would have been inconceivable that the Soviets would have fought their way all the way to Berlin and not make every effort to confirm Hitler's death. Indeed, there is good reason to believe that the NKVD recovered some of Hitler's remains and sent it to Moscow for forensic analysis. Moreover, the thorough Israeli Nazi hunters who ferreted out Adolf Eichmann and others would have never settled for hear-say evidence of Hitler's escape.

I was given a copy of Armin D. Lehmann's "Hitler's Last Courier" by a friend, who had personally met Lehmann in Oregon, where Lehmann spent his last years. Lehmann who was 16 years old in 1945, was selected as a courier under Artur Axmann. As a courier delivering dispatches, he had access to the Fuehrerbunker in the waning weeks of the war.

In his book, Lehmann states that he saw Hitler on at least four different occasions, once, briefly, on Hitler's birthday on April 20, 1945 and again on April 26 or 27th. In Lehmann's own words: "On the third occasion, I encountered Hitler as I entered the bunker through the emergency entrance, and I saw him leaning aaginst the wall. He had at his side Reichsleiter Bormann and on the other side an SS-officer. I am not sure who it was." Again, in Lehmann's words: "The fourth and last time I saw Adolf Hitler close-up was on April 30th. There can be no doubt this date is accurate."

Brief note on Armin Lehmann: He was born in a German home that completely accepted Hitler and his philosophies. Under a cold, domineering and authoritarian father, he was indoctrinated and brainwashed into Nazism. However, after the war he had opportunity to travel and completely changed his philosophy to one of promoting pacificism and peace. He later retired to coastal Oregon and became a dedicated spokesperson for peace until his death a few years ago.