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I think a lot of people see 'Gay' and 'Straight' as some sort of ON/Off switch. That's not a very good conceptual model. In reality, sexual preference is more like a continuum, with Absolutely Heterosexual at one end, and Absolutely Homosexual at the other.
Virtually nobody really is at the extreme ends. Pretty-much everybody is capable of same-sex attraction in some degree, and on some level. And women, supposedly, are more versatile in this respect than are men. That's why so many little Bluehairs believe the TV preachers, and shell out part of their life savings to get their 'little grandsons' straightened-out by the ex-gay ministries. Those women have struggled to suppress same-sex attractions all their lives, and so really do believe that it's all a matter of choice.
So, when people are supposedly 'converted', they aren't really. Maybe they change what team they're playing on (if only temporarily), but their range of attraction hasn't changed much...if any. If, indeed, anything has changed (and they're not just lying), it's only a change in practice, not a change of sexual orientation.
And the same goes for 'conversion'. I imagine the reported conversions by 'Tadpole', over the radio, are a lie concocted for someone's marketing of their 'ex-gay' scam. But assuming people listening to 'Tadpole' started having homosexual sex (or simply began to acknowledge their homosexual fantasies). All of the people supposedly 'converted' were probably bisexual to begin with, and had been suppressing their homosexual attractions. After their 'conversions', they simply began to suppress their heterosexual attractions. Most of these individuals are surely of low intelligence, and lack the ability to adequately describe what they are feeling and doing (and I would add that most are probably pathological liars with a touch of Histrionic Personality Disorder).
So, yes, people can, to some degree, change their outward expression of their sexuality. But no, you cannot, in the long term, or to any significant degree, change people's innate/inner sexuality. 'Therapists' cannot really 'convert', nor can predators really 'recruit'.
Basically, this whole controversy is an accretion of absurdities: one stupid idea layered on top of another....MUCH TO DO ABOUT NOTHING.
I would ad that the term 'Sequentially Bisexual' was coined decades before the first ex-gay ministry came along. People naturally change their mode of sexual expression in response to changes in time of life and the changing circumstances of their lives. What a wonderful thing: another something for which we should thank our Creator. But it's certainly not something that outsiders should try to dictate or manipulate.
In the final analysis, sexual attraction is very complex, and ever-changing. And I resent organized religion's taking what should be a playground, and turning it into a war zone. Sex should be a source of fun and bonding: not a source of anxiety and persecution. People should be free to express their sexuality in Heterosexual, Bisexual, or Homosexual modes as suits their needs and preferences.
At this point, of course, you're wondering about me. So I'll tell you a story:
I always thought of myself as one of the totally-heterosexual few. I like men better as people. I find men's bodies extremely exciting, and find women's bodies extremely repulsive. I see makeup and painted nails as slutty...don't even like high-heels. Men know I like 'em, know I'm safe to flirt with (they can pat me on the butt, and they'll get a wink and a "Quit that, you sexy thing."...not a lawsuit). So, anyway, there I was thinking I was in that rare one percent of total heteros...watching TV with DH. A Frenchwoman champion rock climber came onscreen. No ruffles, no lace, no skankynails...just this well-tanned, lean, woman of obviously aristocratic birth, all muscle and sinew...climbing a rock outcropping with just her bare hands.
I looked over at DH and said "OK, if you can get that one, we'll have our first three-way". That moment is the only glimmer of same-sex attraction I've ever had. But it was enough to prove to me that I'm not an absolute.
As far as any gay person I've known, man or woman (and I know a lot, having worked in media and mental health) the answers are no, and no.
I agree that orientation is a spectrum. I do think society has such contempt for male homosexuals that it's hard for a guy in the mid of the spectrum to stay neutral (bi) and if he's gonna declare himself, he goes all the way.
When it comes to women, I think society sees it as arousing if the women are good-looking. If they're not good-looking, no one cares what they do.
I imagine people can change their behavior, but not their feelings. If they've internalized a religious message or some such, they can not act on their real attractions, but I don't think they can be rid of them (and who would want to be- how disfiguring that must be to one's psyche).
I think being gay is a natural variation on the majority norm, probably due to some sort of hormonal wash in the womb.
I once asked a gay friend how he knew he was gay, and of course, he asked me, "How do you know you're straight?"
Oh.
I agree with what you're saying. Just to piggyback on to what you've said. I think many, if not most guys who are truly "bi" will live heterosexual lives and just mess around with guys on the side. Most will not get same sex partners, although that is probably be changing.
It also seems to me there are more gay men than lesbian women. And there seem to be more bisexual women than bisexual men.
A lot of men who claim to be bisexual are actually gay (but certainly not all).
I agree with what you're saying. Just to piggyback on to what you've said. I think many, if not most guys who are truly "bi" will live heterosexual lives and just mess around with guys on the side. Most will not get same sex partners, although that is probably be changing.
It also seems to me there are more gay men than lesbian women. And there seem to be more bisexual women than bisexual men.
A lot of men who claim to be bisexual are actually gay (but certainly not all).
When my brother first admitted to dating men, he initially claimed he was bi, but as time wore on, he acknowledged that he was truly homosexual. I wish he hadn't held back the complete truth, because it was very difficult for my parents who continued hoping that he would fall in love with a woman. That was very painful for them, but perhaps he wasn't ready to admit to himself that he was (is) gay. In the end, he found his life partner and has been happily coupled for many years.
It makes about as much sense as a tall person changing into a short person. There are many gays that tried very hard to be straight. My partner and I each went through this when that moment of self-discovery, that ghastly moment when we each realized we would always be on the outside looking in, sunk in. For both of us it was our late teens. Sadly, others we knew never made it. The head in the gas oven, the noose in the bedroom and the razor blade in the bathroom was their only recourse. The religious rantings of that time (and likely today as well) was the final cut for some.
As we peruse the forums on City-data, we look at the casual cruelty exhibited by posters, the specious positioning of being on the side of gays and in the same breath discussing whether or not their rights matter, and comparing those rights to the slippage of society into some kind of moral anarchy. Our fav is the insinuation that it will lead to incest, bestial marriage, plural marriage etc etc.
The worst is, they don't stop to think that someone trying to come to grips with being the most hated minority on this earth, and being unable to change it, may read those city-data words and consider suicide as the only way out.
I dated a straight man once who thought he could go gay. He was convinced he could, even cocky about it. His nether regions had an entirely different agenda and showed him so, lol. It's like the colour of your eyes, the best you can do is wear contacts; a cover-up.
I think all those ex-gays are bi to begin with. They are the only group able to swing both ways, as we used to call it.
I agree with what you're saying. Just to piggyback on to what you've said. I think many, if not most guys who are truly "bi" will live heterosexual lives and just mess around with guys on the side. Most will not get same sex partners, although that is probably be changing.
It also seems to me there are more gay men than lesbian women. And there seem to be more bisexual women than bisexual men.
A lot of men who claim to be bisexual are actually gay (but certainly not all).
Not all- i'm a 'true' bisexual man, it's rather annoying that so many gay men claim to be bi initially as it creates the impression all bi men are closet gays. Personaly i'm attracted to people who have mixed qualities (androgenous women- think catwalk models/fem men, usually asians) rather than pure femininity or masculinity. I'm more towards the straight side though and act 'straight'.
I do believe sexual orientation is more of a range, than a black/white kind of thing. I do think it's possible for some people to move along that continuum, but not all the way from totally gay to totally heterosexual. Now, they may be able to do that with their outward behavior. But inwardly, I don't believe it's possible.
Your whole post was refreshingly non-dogmatic and intelligent. Thank you for giving some insight from the perspective of being gay. As a straight person I've observed the same thing, but more influence on my thinking has come from reading studies about "gayness" --- the endless debates about whether we're all born bisexual, whether gay is genetic, how much of it is socialization, etc.
A lot of people can have a curiosity which they choose to explore and it ends up being purely a choice. They won't choose to remain in intimate same-sex relationships unless they're truly wired for that. Others I've known are bisexual but only experience one true love who is of the same sex. That's an interesting phenomenon to me, one that I'd like to have explained if anyone can.
I've had friends whose sexual preference has migrated from one gender to the other and back. That's another situation that puzzles me.
And then there are those who are gay from birth, there's no gray area.
As with every aspect of genetics, we're not the product of single-gene traits. Many different genes interact and there are non-genetic factors that control which of our genes are active, which aren't, and to what degree they're activated. We're far more complex than what we're taught by the simplistic "nature vs. nurture" debate. Science has moved way beyond such black and white thinking.
I wish he hadn't held back the complete truth, because it was very difficult for my parents who continued hoping that he would fall in love with a woman.
Well, sexual orientation is such a confusing issue. Maybe your brother was bi back then, but later down the road in life, he realized that women were not his true calling and found out that he was gay. There really is no true black or white spectrum unfortunately. All you can do is accept it and move on
Quote:
Originally Posted by tongpa-nyi
Others I've known are bisexual but only experience one true love who is of the same sex. That's an interesting phenomenon to me, one that I'd like to have explained if anyone can.
I've had friends whose sexual preference has migrated from one gender to the other and back. That's another situation that puzzles me.
Being bisexual mean that you are attracted (sexually) to male and female bits. That's pretty much it. The people who you knew (that were bi) found love and their love just happened to be of the same sex. They themselves do not consider themselves "gay" as they would still be attracted to the opposite sex (provided it was their one true love). Though, outsiders would see them as "homosexual" despite them claiming to be bi due to the labeling. About sums it up for you?
Sexual orientation is such a confusing thing. I believe your friends are still confused where they lie on the spectrum and is trying to figure where they are at.
Well, sexual orientation is such a confusing issue. Maybe your brother was bi back then, but later down the road in life, he realized that women were not his true calling and found out that he was gay. There really is no true black or white spectrum unfortunately. All you can do is accept it and move on
That is entirely possible. It was just difficult for my parents, because it gave them hope that my brother could fall in love with a woman. It's been very difficult for them, which has made it difficult for our entire family. It's complicated, but the short story is that he's been in a happy relationship with another man for many years.
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