Hate communism! ... but what is it?

[GregW]

Russia never practiced communism because it was a toleration state where capitalists were replaced with commissars. Instead of commissars we have bosses. I was threatened with dismissal from a company because I grew a beard. I shaved it off until I found another job. Then one fine Friday the foreman noticed me packing up my tool box and asked what was going on. I told him that he and/or his bosses did not have absolutely any right to question my beard and that I would not be working for them any more. He responded by offering to argue with the bosses. I just said it was too late because I had already been insulted.

[jtur88]

Originally Posted by Redisca

Well, could you tell me where you got the information that formed the basis for your favorable opinion of Soviet communism?

I don't have a favorable opinion of Soviet communism and I never said I did. My remarks only addressed the manner in which Americans were indoctrinated in their dogmatic beliefs about Soviet communism. I disagree with and challenge your assumption that most Americans (or many, or even more than a handful) went to the USSR during the cold war and believed false information they were given on sightseeing busses.

" Government-trained guides would take you to "special" facilities designed to make you marvel at how great communism is.

Take a Gray Line bus in NYC and see how much time they spend showing you Harlem and South Bronx.

[Redisca]

Originally Posted by jtur88

I don't have a favorable opinion of Soviet communism and I never said I did. My remarks only addressed the manner in which Americans were indoctrinated in their dogmatic beliefs about Soviet communism. I disagree with and challenge your assumption that most Americans (or many, or even more than a handful) went to the USSR during the cold war and believed false information they were given on sightseeing busses.

I didn't mention "sightseeing busses". I mentioned government guides. That's not the same thing at all. It's obvious to me you really don't know what you are talking about.

Originally Posted by jtur88

Take a Gray Line bus in NYC and see how much time they spend showing you Harlem and South Bronx.

Apples to oranges. Taking a Gray Line bus is only one of many options for a tourist -- and it's a private tour, and not one operated by the CIA. It isn't mandatory to take it. A tourist is free to go to Harlem or the South Bronx, if he wishes, and in fact, there are tours of Harlem, as well as gardens and museums in Harlem and Washington Heights (the latter being accessible only by going either through Harlem or the South Bronx). Tourists to NYC aren't denied access to New Yorkers, or to facilities and services that ordinary New Yorkers use. They aren't required to have a government-employed tourist guide, whose job is to prevent the tourists from interacting with people on the street or seeing places that are less than picture-perfect. Tourists to NYC aren't limited to special tourist-only currency, that is accepted only in special stores and restaurants that are off limits to ordinary New Yorkers. Finally, while a Gray Line tour may only show the prettiest parts of New York -- those parts are still not Potemkin Villages. They are not fake. They are not fronts constructed by the government solely to convey an impression to visitors. Real New Yorkers live in those pretty houses, shop in those snazzy stores and eat in those upscale restaurants. Central Park, Bergdorff Goodman and Petrossian may cater only to a certain well-heeled stratum of New York's population, but they are still an authentic slice of New York's life, not cardboard stage props. Soviet Russia, by contrast, created an entire propagandistic bubble for visitors, whose contents were completely sham. It's not that those "demonstrative" schools, hospitals, stores and restaurants served only the privileged -- they were either absolutely staged, or admitted only foreigners.

[jtur88]

Redisca, I was in the USSR in 1968, traveling in Russia,, Latvia, Lithuania and Byelorussia. I dont' know where all those Americans were, being indoctrinated by official Soviet guides, but I did not see a single one of them. I had a tour guide all to myself in Vilnius, and she asked me what I wanted to see and I told her I was interested in folk architecture, and she took me around to see old houses, like the ones my grandparents probably grew up in. Except for that hour a day with a guide, I was left perfectly free to walk the streets wherever I pleased. I ate my meals wherever I wanted. I took my guide out to dinner and dancing at night, we were accompanied by another couple, her friends. We talked mostly about America, and about what life might have been like for my grandparents in the pre-soviet era. I've traveled quite a lot, and if there are any American tourists around, I usually see them. I didn't see any in the USSR---not a single one. I wonder where they all were.

In 68 and 69, I spent about 5 months in the eastern bloc countries, mostly in Romania. There was plenty of opportunity for the Communists to indoctrinate me, but I kept slipping through their fingers. I never spent even a single minute with any of the dreaded "officlals" that are the chief source of what Americans believe about communism. Instead, I fancied a girl in Romania, spent a lot of time with her and her simple, working-class family, and also hung out with college students, who quite freely told me what was wrong with their country. Based on my experience, I cannot even imagine what in the hell it is that you are talking about, I saw no Americans, I saw no offcials indoctrinating anybody about communism. I can't even remember meeting an American since them who was ever even in a communist country. In the 90s I was in China, Vietnam, Laos---not a single incident of anybody trying to show me communist glory or direct me to false fronts. Just riding rickety old busses through the back country, seeing whatever I wanted to see.

[Redisca]

Originally Posted by jtur88

Redisca, I was in the USSR in 1968, traveling in Russia,, Latvia, Lithuania and Byelorussia. I dont' know where all those Americans were, being indoctrinated by official Soviet guides, but I did not see a single one of them. I had a tour guide all to myself in Vilnius, and she asked me what I wanted to see and I told her I was interested in folk architecture, and she took me around to see old houses, like the ones my grandparents probably grew up in. Except for that hour a day with a guide, I was left perfectly free to walk the streets wherever I pleased. I ate my meals wherever I wanted. I took my guide out to dinner and dancing at night, we were accompanied by another couple, her friends. We talked mostly about America, and about what life might have been like for my grandparents in the pre-soviet era.

How would you know an "official" Soviet guide, anyway? Did you expect them to wear a military uniform? What, do you still think you had a private tour guide? Haha! All tourist guides were official -- giving private tours was illegal (like all forms of profiteering), and unauthorized contact with people from capitalist countries was grounds for prosecution. Incidentally, in what language did you and your Lithuanian friends communicate? Was it in English, by any chance? You know, it was extremely unusual for people in the Soviet Union to be fluent in English, unless they worked as government apparatchiks in communication with foreigners. Although many homes possessed a high school-level English textbook, access to English-language media and speakers of English was so extremely restricted, that the only way to become anywhere near fluent was to work for the KGB. And all tour guides were KGB agents, though I can see why yours wouldn't announce it to you. And this is what I mean by Western gullibility -- you had a tour guide who didn't have "KGB" spelled out on her forehead, she seemed like a nice person who showed you some pretty houses, and you met her "friends" -- and you automatically assumed you weren't being indoctrinated with how wonderful the Soviet Union was. By the way: the Baltics were always slightly more relaxed than the rest of the country. I notice you didn't share your experiences in Russia.

Originally Posted by jtur88

I've traveled quite a lot, and if there are any American tourists around, I usually see them. I didn't see any in the USSR---not a single one. I wonder where they all were.

That is extraordinary. Maybe there were hiding out in Kosmos or Rossiya, or shopping at Berezka, or eating at one of those numerous restaurants where you need "special" rubles given out only to foreigners. I don't know, jtur, the Soviet Union I lived in had 2 currencies, so the one you visited must have been in a parallel universe somewhere. And growing up in Moscow, I saw Westerners and Americans all the time -- all the time; we (non-KGB) just weren't allowed to approach them. I also spent quite a bit of time in Sochi, on the Black Sea, which was chock-full of Americans in the summer. My grandparents worked at a resort that was specifically reserved for the Politburo and members of foreign communist parties; American communists stayed there too. I saw them. I knew who they were. And I knew "simple working-class" people with a perfect command of English, who entertained them with conversation. It was a shameful charade.

Originally Posted by jtur88

In 68 and 69, I spent about 5 months in the eastern bloc countries, mostly in Romania. There was plenty of opportunity for the Communists to indoctrinate me, but I kept slipping through their fingers. I never spent even a single minute with any of the dreaded "officlals" that are the chief source of what Americans believe about communism.

So you think.

Originally Posted by jtur88

Instead, I fancied a girl in Romania, spent a lot of time with her and her simple, working-class family, and also hung out with college students, who quite freely told me what was wrong with their country.

And despite being from simple, working-class families, they just happened to have a good command of English in a country where it was virtually impossible to acquire without working for the government. Or, do you speak Romanian, too? Incidentally, what did they tell you was wrong with their country? Did they tell you about the punitive psychiatry? The torture of dissidents? The lack of freedom of the press or conscience? The fact that all letters going in and out of the country were opened and read by censors? The forced gynecological exams?

Originally Posted by jtur88

Based on my experience, I cannot even imagine what in the hell it is that you are talking about, I saw no Americans, I saw no offcials indoctrinating anybody about communism.

And you would know someone is an official how? Oh, right, because an official introduces himself as such, wears a copy of Communist Manifesto pinned to his shirt, and informs you that he intends to indoctrinate you. Bwah-hahahahahaha!

Originally Posted by jtur88

I can't even remember meeting an American since them who was ever even in a communist country.

Funny, I know lots of Americans who have been in communist countries.

Originally Posted by jtur88

In the 90s I was in China, Vietnam, Laos---not a single incident of anybody trying to show me communist glory or direct me to false fronts.

And how would you know something is a false front?

Originally Posted by jtur88

Just riding rickety old busses through the back country, seeing whatever I wanted to see.

And not seeing what you didn't want to see -- that's the most important thing.

[jtur88]

My Soviet tour guide met me at the train station, knew i was coming, knew my name, had a copy of my itinerary and my hotel reservations. Sounds official to me.

Please do not pretend to tell me what I saw and what I did for six month of my life, you were not with me. I've lived in 6 third-worlc countries, traveled to more than 120 countries, paid my own way, arrived unexpectedly, rarely stayed in a hotel that had any foreign visitors, always traveled the lowest class available (including on top of trains), hitchhiked in dozens of countries---please don't try to tell me that I am too naive to have noticed if I was being lead around by the nose and spoon-fed officials lines everywhere.

You have already proven that you are absolutely wrong and know nothing at all about anything when you say that what Americans know about communism is what they were told when lying Black Sea beaches.

[Redisca]

Originally Posted by jtur88

My Soviet tour guide met me at the train station, knew i was coming, knew my name, had a copy of my itinerary and my hotel reservations. Sounds official to me.

You said you didn't have an official guide. And, like it or not, she was in the KGB. If that fact insults your sense of insight, so be it.

Originally Posted by jtur88

Please do not pretend to tell me what I saw and what I did for six month of my life, you were not with me.

I lived in the Soviet Union, I grew up there. I lived there not as an American citizen, but as a Soviet with a fifth-column problem. So don't you, in the first place, pretend to tell me what life was like in the USSR. To say there were no American tourists in the USSR is insane. There were lots of them, and I know this to be true from my own experiences and the experiences of my family and friends. To say that foreigners didn't move in their own parallel world, surrounded by English-fluent government functionaries mascarading as "the people" is insane -- because the totality of my native country's experience up until the 1990's establishes otherwise. To say that there are no -- or almost no -- Americans who ever traveled to communist countries is insane. I don't know about Texas, but here in New York, I've met dozens of native-born Americans who have been to a number of communist countries. I don't give diddly squat what you saw or didn't see -- I know what I saw, and what I heard, and what I was ordered to do or not to do. Yeah, I was not with you when you went on your backpacking adventures. But I'd venture a guess you don't speak Russian. You didn't live there as one of the great unwashed, unlike me. So don't you pretend to tell me how I lived for 13 years of my life, and how my parents and grandparents lived for decades of theirs.

Originally Posted by jtur88

I've lived in 6 third-worlc countries, traveled to more than 120 countries, paid my own way, arrived unexpectedly, rarely stayed in a hotel that had any foreign visitors, always traveled the lowest class available (including on top of trains), hitchhiked in dozens of countries---please don't try to tell me that I am too naive to have noticed if I was being lead around by the nose and spoon-fed officials lines everywhere.

*Shrug* If you don't want to hear it, fine. But unless you spoke the language and immersed yourself in the life of those countries completely (paying your own way, while commendable, doesn't qualify), don't pretend you know the truth. After all is said and done, you traveled there. You were doing sight-seeing. You didn't live there as I did. And your youthful adventures do not cancel out my own experiences of seeing American communists vacationing in Sochi: living the high life behind a 9-foot concrete wall, with their menagerie and tennis courts and a modest resort complex that was a replica of Versailles, waited on hand and foot by people who were forced to live in overcrowded concrete cells and to eat paper in their food and spend most of their spare time finagling basic necessities and keeping their thoughts to themselves -- only to have those tourists report what a great "workers' paradise" it was.

Originally Posted by jtur88

You have already proven that you are absolutely wrong and know nothing at all about anything when you say that what Americans know about communism is what they were told when lying Black Sea beaches.

Whatever. My father spent an hour eating barbecue with a couple of tourists from East Germany -- and that was enough to precipitate a visit from the police to our house, during which our entire apartment was searched top to bottom and all of us were separately interrogated. But your new-found friends were just amazingly free to entertain an American, for crying out loud, and speak freely about whatever they wanted. Yeah. What do I know? You were there for 6 months, so you must be right.

[jtur88]

You have told us the following:
1. During the Cold War, most Americans thought communism was just wonderful
2. The reason they thought that was because thats what they were told while visiting the USSR.

What other enlightening intelligence do you have for us?

You were not in America then, you know absolutely nothing about what Americans thought or how they formed their opinions. To quote Redisca, "I was there".