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My opinion on misogyny, which I have experienced as a female, is that it is rooted in thousands of years and many, many generations of "learned" behavior toward women. Because it is a certain way then that's the way it is and will be (sarcasm).
I know that I am superior to many men intellectually but my voice is literally not heard when in a mixed group. It's not always on purpose, boys learn to listen to older males from an early age and only listen to their mothers when absolutely necessary. That early learning carries through to every age and situation.
I picture misogyny as a Venn diagram: white males are at the top generally and then under that are various iterations, non-white males, women, homosexuals, and other categories that "civilized" people accept as less-than the Alpha white male.
When Hilary Clinton and Barack Obama were contending for the Democratic presidential platform I said to my husband there was no way they'd choose Hilary even though I was an advocate. Any male of any color will be chosen above a highly qualified female. It's my experience of the world so please don't argue whether I'm right or wrong, it's my opinion.
I think misogyny will slowly change into meritocracy if birth control continues as a viable option for women but it will take several generations of continued pushback by females to earn it.
Males are aggressive and will not yield their higher position easily. Why? Because it's life and death...for their genes and their legacy. They do not easily yield to other males so they will definitely not let women rise to equal status easily, women will have to demand it and work harder for it. They are already being killed for it in some cases. Saying "no" is enough to incite violence from males on women.
I'm not sure women want everything that men have, to be honest, not the shorter lifespan for sure. But we do want to be paid the same for equal work/contribution. And some work that women do is not valued highly enough. As the birth rate declines motherhood may turn out to be more highly valued than in the past. Women may hold the future cards there unless someone invents factory offspring tended by low cost nursery-bots. Brave New World.
When I was younger I liked men a lot more than now, after a lifetime of seeing how they act toward women. I married a good man but even he reverts to alpha without thinking sometimes. I am a female who wants to be treated equal to men when in the same situation. That's all.
Spot on.
The argument in some posts recently that men are stronger physically and do a lot of manual work is so off base on this thread. Who is stronger is not the question. Why does misogyny exist is.
I don't believe women want anything that men have either, other than being valued for what they bring to the table, be it motherhood, caring for children and the elderly, teaching, research, law, technology, medicine, whatever. Women excel but do not get the recognition, or the money, they deserve.
I wonder what men want that women have. That is the key to the misogyny, the fear and hatred.
I'd like to think it is a number of things men want from women and probably a number of mature males do. Besides being the creative force for the whole human race, generally speaking women are the cohesive glue, the communicators and the comforters.
But I'm inclined to believe that the first thing that a man, and particularly a young man, would answer if he were honest would be the basic - sex. It's a powerful force. Lysistrata.
Spot on.
The argument in some posts recently that men are stronger physically and do a lot of manual work is so off base on this thread. Who is stronger is not the question. Why does misogyny exist is.
I don't believe women want anything that men have either, other than being valued for what they bring to the table, be it motherhood, caring for children and the elderly, teaching, research, law, technology, medicine, whatever. Women excel but do not get the recognition, or the money, they deserve.
I wonder what men want that women have. That is the key to the misogyny, the fear and hatred.
Well yeah, that's a worthwhile thing to point at, what men want that women have.
Or more to the point, what men want that men BELIEVE that women have...which, if in fact we do sometimes get, we may or may not actually want, ourselves.
Either these men have a completely baloney notion about what life for a woman is like in the first place, or they are jealous because they wish to be (not to put too fine a point on it) the recipient of easy desire and easy love and easy social connection, in a way that they believe that men give to women, and society gives to women.
Some of them believe that it is unfair that laws do not permit them to use force against women as it is the male's greatest tool to "win" and without it, hogtied by the laws of the land, he must resentfully submit to women and let women walk all over him. With everything from initial consent to what they believe divorce to be like. I had a man pose me this question: "If a man and a woman disagree because he wants sex, as men always do, and she does not, as women always don't, then why does she always get the final say in it? Why is my right to want sex not as valid as her right to not want it?"
Think of it this way. Men might do crass things, like catcalling or sending D pics, yeah? And they think that women SHOULD appreciate this and consider it to be flattering. Why? Because they are blasting out what they wish women would give to them (in theory anyhow.) Or at the very least, they wish to be WANTED the way that they want women.
It might be valid for men to envy the affection and closeness that some women have in female friend groups.
And it might also be valid for men to struggle against the fact that if they get divorced, they have a disadvantage when it comes to child custody. Though I would also argue, that before they really step up to that fight, they should think about how much time they did or did not devote to those kids prior to the divorce. It really seems to me that some dudes could not care less about their kids, they just don't want to pay support, or they want to "win" in the divorce, and that is why they fight for custody. They like the idea of being a parent more than the reality of doing the work, some of them.
I wonder what men want that women have. That is the key to the misogyny, the fear and hatred.
It's not fear and hatred; it's jealousy. In today's society, being a woman is like playing the game of life with all the cheat codes enabled. Society puts your gender on a pedestal. The liberal government bends over backwards for you and kisses your behind. If you file for divorce, you get the house, the car, the dog, the custody of the kids, your husband's priceless stamp collection, 50% of your husband's assets, and alimony for the rest of your life. Meanwhile, your husband has to live in a shoddy, drafty apartment in a high-crime area, surrender his hard-earned income to you that you don't pay taxes on, and fight tooth-and-nail just to see his kids.
Heck, if I could be born anew and choose my gender, I'd MOST DEFINITELY be a woman. I'd have wild, passionate sex with studly men when I'm young and sexy, then marry some chump just to fleece him for everything he's got, and ride high on the hog for the rest of my life. All because society says it's my right as a woman to do all that.
Last edited by MillennialUrbanist; 10-13-2021 at 06:11 PM..
It's not fear and hatred; it's jealousy. In today's society, being a woman is like playing the game of life with all the cheat codes enabled. Society puts your gender on a pedestal. The liberal government bends over backwards for you and kisses your behind. If you file for divorce, you get the house, the car, the dog, the custody of the kids, your husband's priceless stamp collection, 50% of your husband's money, and alimony for the rest of your life. Meanwhile, your husband has to live in a shoddy, drafty apartment in a high-crime area, and has to fight tooth-and-nail just to see his kids. Heck, if I could choose my gender, I'd MOST DEFINITELY be a woman. And I'd marry some chump just to fleece him for everything he's got and them some, and ride high on the hog for the rest of my life.
MillennialUrbanist, are you speaking from personal experience? If so, my condolences to you on not getting a better deal out of your divorce and the bitterness you express that may have resulted from it.
The reality is that most women do NOT do better after divorce, which is the reason why many opt to remain in dismal and often abusive marriages. While I am not speaking from personal experience, I am speaking in regard to data from numerous studies which have shown that the economic costs of divorce fall more heavily on women: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5992251/
MillennialUrbanist, are you speaking from personal experience? If so, my condolences to you on not getting a better deal out of your divorce and the bitterness you express that may have resulted from it.
The reality is that most women do NOT do better after divorce, which is the reason why many opt to remain in dismal and often abusive marriages. While I am not speaking from personal experience, I am speaking in regard to data from numerous studies which have shown that the economic costs of divorce fall more heavily on women: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5992251/
The study is interesting. A caveat here from the research:
Quote:
Because my analysis uses data from West Germany, it is important to understand specific historical, legal, and societal aspects of divorce. [...] Germany has been described as a typical male breadwinner state (Lewis 1992), in which policy encourages men’s work in the market and women’s work in the home. This contrasts with the liberal tradition of U.S. policy that encourages women to invest in their human capital and to participate in the workforce.
a bit further on
Quote:
Three main findings emerged from the analysis. First, a medium-term view on multiple outcomes yielded an overall picture of similarity, rather than differences, between women and men. Women and men did not differ much in terms of the consequences of divorce for (1) subjective economic well-being; (2) residential moves, homeownership, and satisfaction with housework; (3) mental health, physical health, and psychological well-being; and (4) chances of repartnering and social integration with friends and relatives.
[..]
Second, where gender differences emerged, they were mostly short-lived. Men experienced larger drops in satisfaction with life and particularly in satisfaction with family life observed in the year of divorce, but over the next years, the gender gap in these outcomes vanished. The same pattern was observed for women’s larger declines in satisfaction with household income, suggesting that gender differences in the consequences of divorce are generally larger in the short term than in the medium term.
then we get to the big one
Quote:
Third, I found large gender differences for a few of the 20 outcome measures. Most notably, women were strongly disadvantaged in terms of losses in household income and associated increases in the risk of poverty.
interestingly, women were apparently still more likely to initiate divorce than men in the study.
The economic thing is hard to square. I don't know about the culture of former West Germany, but I am more familiar with young women in America in their 20s and 30s. Most of them work. Maybe some will work less or quit working after having children, though I see less and less of it. I don't know what's the most fair way of determining a loss of income after divorce in the case where both partners work during the marraige or the case where both partners worked at the beginning of the marraige and the woman works less or quits working after having children.
I feel there should be some adjustment for the fact that most women prefer to marry and do marry men who make more money than them before children are even in the picture. However we also need to account for the fact that women generally are more likely to work less or stop working after children to stay home and care for them, particularly in the early years, potentially sacrificing career trajectory in the process. It's a messy problem.
My stongest conviction on the issue is that I would like to see some cultural shifts in general regarding marraige and divorce. I feel like divorce should not be considered an acceptable outcome to marriage. Not to say that sometimes it isn't a necessary evil, but that it should be very rare. Marriage and especially family formation is extremely important, perhaps the most important thing we do in our lives. People don't take that seriously anymore, men or women. The culture treats it like a joke, half of the marraiges end in divorce.
We can sit here and debate about whether the men or the women have it worse in divorce, but grow up. The ones who have it worse than them both in divorce are the children. They should be the priority all along.
Just to add one more thing on that last bit, a lot of the blame does fall on men. Men need to take fatherhood more seriously. That's something that has almost fallen off of the modern feminism and it's a great shame because it still needs to be said.
I feel like at some point we realized that society allowed some men to get away with being scoundrels and shirking their responsibilities to their spouse and to their children. And instead of driving that point home and taking action to solve that problem, we decided that that was too hard. Instead we said lets allow the women behave like scoundrels too to make it fair. That was a step backwards and not a step forward.
Just to add one more thing on that last bit, a lot of the blame does fall on men. Men need to take fatherhood more seriously. That's something that has almost fallen off of the modern feminism and it's a great shame because it still needs to be said.
I feel like at some point we realized that society allowed some men to get away with being scoundrels and shirking their responsibilities to their spouse and to their children. And instead of driving that point home and taking action to solve that problem, we decided that that was too hard. Instead we said lets allow the women behave like scoundrels too to make it fair. That was a step backwards and not a step forward.
I would replace Society with men in this sentence, and in my opinion modern feminism seems to ostracize men who fill traditional female roles, not promote it.
A lot of the "“manosphere” for instance is actually nothing more than fathers who love their children and are standing up of their own rights to care for them, not the far right wing misogynists' they are portrayed to be.
I am a happily married stay at home father, however would never touch a fathers group because of the way they are portrayed by society.
Last edited by danielsa1775; 10-13-2021 at 08:29 PM..
I feel like at some point we realized that society allowed some men to get away with being scoundrels and shirking their responsibilities to their spouse and to their children. And instead of driving that point home and taking action to solve that problem, we decided that that was too hard. Instead we said lets allow the women behave like scoundrels too to make it fair. That was a step backwards and not a step forward.
That's only true for naturally desirable men, the kind every woman wants and the kind who find their way onto "Jerry Springer". The stable providers who take fatherhood seriously, to the point of raising Bastard, Jr., are the ones getting the shaft in our feminist society.
That's only true for naturally desirable men, the kind every woman wants and the kind who find their way onto "Jerry Springer". The stable providers who take fatherhood seriously, to the point of raising Bastard, Jr., are the ones getting the shaft in our feminist society.
fair enough, but that's part of why it was a hard problem to solve.
and yes we made the problem worse by making it culturally acceptable for women to behave like these immoral men and culturally unacceptable to condemn them for it. We also made it more acceptable to condemn men who do take fatherhood seriously and continually blur the line between that strong and respectable beahvior and weakness when it comes to men. there is a clear difference between weakness and being a responsible, loving father. They are almost complete opposites in reality! but the two only become more and more conflated and corrupted by an immoral culture.
these kind of changes are disasterous to a well functioning society. it hurts almost everyone involved in the long term
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