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Please post the data on what useless subjects are resulting in poverty. Not just anecdotes. I want to see DATA on major : income ratios and specifically the college degrees that only result in poverty wages.
Without too much trouble, this googled up pretty easily:
For example, the median annual earnings of 25- to 29-year-olds with bachelor’s degrees in fine arts ($40,500), psychology ($41,400), and communications and communications technologies ($45,600) were lower than the median annual earnings of all bachelor’s degree holders ($50,600)
which shows the average annual cost of attendance to be ~$33.5K, or $134K for four years (all colleges) or ~$50.3K or $201.2K for four years (private).
None of which includes the average time it takes for graduation.
While none of this says a college graduate will live in poverty, it should be fairly easy to discern that one shouldn't major in "Liberal Arts & Humanities) while attending a more expensive private college unless one has an independent source of funds to pay for it.
For example, the median annual earnings of 25- to 29-year-olds with bachelor’s degrees in fine arts ($40,500), psychology ($41,400), and communications and communications technologies ($45,600) were lower than the median annual earnings of all bachelor’s degree holders ($50,600)
which shows the average annual cost of attendance to be ~$33.5K, or $134K for four years (all colleges) or ~$50.3K or $201.2K for four years (private).
None of which includes the average time it takes for graduation.
While none of this says a college graduate will live in poverty, it should be fairly easy to discern that one shouldn't major in "Liberal Arts & Humanities) while attending a more expensive private college unless one has an independent source of funds to pay for it.
With discount rates the finances for the private colleges are quite variable.
100k debt for 40k a year job is not poverty by a LONG SHOT, especially assuming the job is full time with health insurance and steady. I know people with worse debt to income ratios for buying an RV. And that depreciates.
Also, 25-29 year olds are probably only 1-4 years into their career or not even yet in the career. Are you assuming they make entry level salaries their entire lives? So that is only looking at probably their worst earning years. At my work we hardly hire anyone
for salaried positions under age 30. Quite rare to hire someone 23-27.
Temporary low levels of money do not poverty make.
Especially when one has hardly been alive long enough to build any wealth and only been outside the parents house <10 years.
Compare it to high school only as well, and see how well those people are doing at age 30, then ages 40 and 50. Odds are the high school only person has not progressed much.
What you're talking about is a commentary on college costs, not the value of the education. Yes it should not be costing what it does and that is a scandal, but the same people who desparage the arts seem to have NO plan to address those costs, other than to close those courses of study. Which is absurd because it does not take a genius to see that instruction in the arts does not cost 200k. I could purchase an entire orchestra hall for a private performance by a symphony orchestra for 200k. Probably for multiple nights. Or hire my very own private professional music tutor for at least 2 years, maybe 3.
it should be fairly easy to discern that one shouldn't major in "Liberal Arts & Humanities) while attending a more expensive private college
Which is to say they shouldn't exist. Maybe 8-15% of rhe population at best has enough money to pay out of pocket at current rates. No program could survive no enrollment.
If you closed down every arts program in existence college would not be one penny cheaper. We'd all just be culturally poorer.
Look again at what you said. For 5-10k a year, no one should ever major in an arts subject? That's about 250k over the course of a career. Thats just ridiculous. That's like saying no one should invest 50k if they are only going to make 1.7 million.
They should only invest it if they can make 2.1 million. But if they don't invest it they've only got 50k.
Last edited by redguard57; 06-04-2021 at 11:13 PM..
Bill Maher, double major BA, English and History, Cornell University class of '78.
Admitted he did a lot of pot while in college, criticizing students today. Also in his day college was MUCH CHEAPER.
Let's see him give his diplomas back.
He's also straight up lying about Biden's plan, which is only for tuition free community college, where there are no lazy rivers or football.
Also lying about the amenities. We live under capitalism. I went to a college that is a direct competitor to Texas Tech. Academically they are equivalent and it doesn't matter which you go to. But mine had its own river and recreational area. The university didn't pay for that, its riverfront came with the land granted when it was established. But it features prominently in all its marketing material. So if you are a student deciding where to go, the fact that a riverpark is a 5 minutes walk away from the quad is a major selling point. It is also part of a major meyro area, not isolated 4 hours from everything like Lubbock.
Texas Tech doesn't have its own river but it is in competition with schools that have one selling point or another. It also has the NEGATIVE selling point of being in Lubbock, so it has to compensate for that somehow.
The university administration didn't spearhead the aquatic center project, the students and alumni did. They voted on it.
Free college would actually LEVEL the playing field, sonthat universitoes don't have to sell themselves bases on their amenities. They did that BECAUSE college got so expensive, people wanted value in experience for their money.
Last edited by redguard57; 06-05-2021 at 10:57 AM..
1) Many people think college is the only way to the middle class.
2)The US is pushing everyone into college. EU counties track students. Only the top students go to university. However, the EU has trade schools and an economy with decent jobs. In the US, the people without college degrees might go into the trades, but awful large number are stuck in minimum wage service jobs.
3) There is a political divide based on one's educational level unlike Europe.
2) It is wrong to have two-thirds of US citizens without degrees paying for the one-third's college costs.
3) There is a crazy about of grade inflation. Many majors like theatre, visual arts, political science, gender studies require a nominal amount of reading and research. Especially, compared to an english or history major with an average of 500 pages of required reading per week.
4) There is increasing requirement for certifications/college for jobs. In NY, home appraisers never need a college degree. It's a job which easily done without it. In a couple of years, NY will require home appraisers to have a BA. How does this make sense? It doesn't - any more than requiring a master's for a librarian.
I think college is great. However, it should not be our only path into the middle class.
it should be fairly easy to discern that one shouldn't major in "Liberal Arts & Humanities) while attending a more expensive private college
Which is to say they shouldn't exist. Maybe 8-15% of rhe population at best has enough money to pay out of pocket at current rates. No program could survive no enrollment.
If you closed down every arts program in existence college would not be one penny cheaper. We'd all just be culturally poorer.
Look again at what you said. For 5-10k a year, no one should ever major in an arts subject? That's about 250k over the course of a career. Thats just ridiculous. That's like saying no one should invest 50k if they are only going to make 1.7 million.
They should only invest it if they can make 2.1 million. But if they don't invest it they've only got 50k.
Glad your career is working out so well for you economically. Be careful drawing statistics from a sample of one.
You should go back and re-read what I said in the context of my total post. Liberal arts and humanities have the overall lowest average income. Private colleges cost on average about $50K per year. Best case, graduating in four years, that's $200K. So, as I said, one shouldn't major in the lowest average pay field of study at the highest cost colleges. Seems pretty obvious.
And no one said the arts aren't needed. They are a critical part of an educated person. Being part of knowledge doesn't mean getting a degree in it. If you do want a degree in it, go to a low cost, in state public university, not a high cost private or out of state university. Simple.
Quote:
Originally Posted by YorktownGal
2)The US is pushing everyone into college. EU counties track students. Only the top students go to university. However, the EU has trade schools and an economy with decent jobs. In the US, the people without college degrees might go into the trades, but awful large number are stuck in minimum wage service jobs.
We used to do the equivalent of tracking and most counties where I grew up had very good Vo-Tech high schools where a student could graduate with Business English, Business Math, fundamental arts and sciences, and a very good education in a trade -- everything from carpentry, electrical, plumbing, welding, machining, to various automotive trades. That prepped them for good paying trade jobs. But somehow in this country working in the trades is now looked down upon.
Quote:
Originally Posted by YorktownGal
3) There is a crazy about of grade inflation. Many majors like theatre, visual arts, political science, gender studies require a nominal amount of reading and research. Especially, compared to an english or history major with an average of 500 pages of required reading per week.
Wonder what would happen if they adjusted college grades based on the difficulty of the degree program. Things like EE and physics an A counts as 6. English grammar and history as a 5. Art subjects as a 4. Or better yet, teach English and history sufficiently in high school so they aren't part of the typical college program unless you were majoring in them. Basically graduate high school with all the typical Gen Eds accomplished and only need three years for a bachelor's and four to add in the master's.
Quote:
Originally Posted by YorktownGal
4) There is increasing requirement for certifications/college for jobs. In NY, home appraisers never need a college degree. It's a job which easily done without it. In a couple of years, NY will require home appraisers to have a BA. How does this make sense? It doesn't - any more than requiring a master's for a librarian.
I believe a lot of the requirement for a bachelor's in fields that shouldn't need it comes from high school being so watered down that a diploma is meaningless and you need the college degree to indicate you've had at least high school math, grammar, science, and history.
Many people on C-D conflate middle class spending problems with poverty problems.
My experience is that poor people are very GOOD money managers. They can cite how much money they have to the cent at any given time.
Middle and upper middle class people who make enough they don't have to check their accounts all the time sometimes spend without thinking. They can get into trouble with credit cards, car loans, etc... That is NOT the same as poverty. That's just mis-management.
This is conflating money management with awareness. They may know where every cent is, but they still can and often do spend what little they do have poorly. One example would be lotto tickets. I don't have the data to assess the extent to which impulse shopping exists within the lowest income levels, but I wouldn't for a second say they are all (or even mostly) good money managers. If anything, I'd argue they don't have enough to need much management, and most every cent they make is already spoken for, so it's been managed for them by living expenses.
Glad your career is working out so well for you economically. Be careful drawing statistics from a sample of one.
You should go back and re-read what I said in the context of my total post. Liberal arts and humanities have the overall lowest average income. Private colleges cost on average about $50K per year. Best case, graduating in four years, that's $200K. So, as I said, one shouldn't major in the lowest average pay field of study at the highest cost colleges. Seems pretty obvious.
And no one said the arts aren't needed. They are a critical part of an educated person. Being part of knowledge doesn't mean getting a degree in it. If you do want a degree in it, go to a low cost, in state public university, not a high cost private or out of state university. Simple.
We used to do the equivalent of tracking and most counties where I grew up had very good Vo-Tech high schools where a student could graduate with Business English, Business Math, fundamental arts and sciences, and a very good education in a trade -- everything from carpentry, electrical, plumbing, welding, machining, to various automotive trades. That prepped them for good paying trade jobs. But somehow in this country working in the trades is now looked down upon.
Wonder what would happen if they adjusted college grades based on the difficulty of the degree program. Things like EE and physics an A counts as 6. English grammar and history as a 5. Art subjects as a 4. Or better yet, teach English and history sufficiently in high school so they aren't part of the typical college program unless you were majoring in them. Basically graduate high school with all the typical Gen Eds accomplished and only need three years for a bachelor's and four to add in the master's.
I believe a lot of the requirement for a bachelor's in fields that shouldn't need it comes from high school being so watered down that a diploma is meaningless and you need the college degree to indicate you've had at least high school math, grammar, science, and history.
Let's ask you this. Two scenarios.
1) if you were a college president, what would you do with your arts and humanities departments? Because if you don't promote them they will die. Students will absorb the messages that these are useless subjects and will not take the classes. They already are. Declared majors in the traditional academic subjects especially liberal arts and humanities has plummeted. But also some of the pure maths and sciences.
You'll be forced to close them for lack of enrollment.
Keep in mind that as a college president you are responsible for maintaining your institution's reputation and rankings, as well as fulfilling the stated mission and legislative or founding charters of the institution
2) If you were a state legislator on the higher education committee, would you increase or decrease funding to colleges who did close their humanities departments?
Keeping in mind as a state legislator, you are responsible for promoting the state's interests which includes as strong and well rounded universities as possible. You want to attract and educate people who will add value to your state, and also keep your best homegrown talent in-state, not export it.
Last edited by redguard57; 06-05-2021 at 12:52 PM..
For many people without money or connections and who don't want manual labor or sales jobs, a degree is the easiest ticket into the middle class.
And there's nothing wrong with a Liberal Arts degree if you don't have a career in science or tech already in mind when you start college. I don't believe a business degree is valued more than liberal arts in job interviews. They both have their advantages. And most jobs that require them just want to know you have a bachelor's degree in anything.
People keep talking about the cost being 200K. Many people, especially in cities, have state and community colleges within commuting distance. If a person commutes to a local college and lives at home, the cost for 4 years is $55K maximum.
Working just 12 hours a week for minimum wage during the school year plus 40 hrs. per week in summer they can earn $5K per year which will knock $20K off the bill, meaning they should have a maximum of $35K in student loans after 4 years. On a thirty year student loan, payments would be about $150 a month.
Once established in their jobs, people can easily pay off the loan quicker if they want to. And $55K without working at all or $35K for those working 12 hours a week during the school year and 40 hrs. a week during the summer, is for four years at the most expensive public colleges, so adding two years of junior college, working at a higher than minimum wage, getting some amount from parents, lowers that substantially and makes college degrees affordable for everyone.
I made it through 4 years at UCLA, got a liberal arts degree, worked, and wound up with student loans I easily paid off over the next 10 years. My son got a liberal arts degree from Hunter College in NYC, worked, and had a total 4 year student loan debt of less than what a new Toyota Camry costs. It would work just as well for my grandsons for their college costs today.
The 2/3 of citizens without degrees have relatives and children and grandchildren who will get them. Taxes provide services for those who need or want them. I don't mind paying taxes for welfare or the fire department though I never needed them. I am paying taxes because I or someone I know may need them.
Quote:
Originally Posted by YorktownGal
He's right.
1) Many people think college is the only way to the middle class.
2)The US is pushing everyone into college. EU counties track students. Only the top students go to university. However, the EU has trade schools and an economy with decent jobs. In the US, the people without college degrees might go into the trades, but awful large number are stuck in minimum wage service jobs.
3) There is a political divide based on one's educational level unlike Europe.
2) It is wrong to have two-thirds of US citizens without degrees paying for the one-third's college costs.
3) There is a crazy about of grade inflation. Many majors like theatre, visual arts, political science, gender studies require a nominal amount of reading and research. Especially, compared to an english or history major with an average of 500 pages of required reading per week.
4) There is increasing requirement for certifications/college for jobs. In NY, home appraisers never need a college degree. It's a job which easily done without it. In a couple of years, NY will require home appraisers to have a BA. How does this make sense? It doesn't - any more than requiring a master's for a librarian.
I think college is great. However, it should not be our only path into the middle class.
1) Many people think college is the only way to the middle class.
2)The US is pushing everyone into college. EU counties track students. Only the top students go to university. However, the EU has trade schools and an economy with decent jobs. In the US, the people without college degrees might go into the trades, but awful large number are stuck in minimum wage service jobs.
3) There is a political divide based on one's educational level unlike Europe.
2) It is wrong to have two-thirds of US citizens without degrees paying for the one-third's college costs.
3) There is a crazy about of grade inflation. Many majors like theatre, visual arts, political science, gender studies require a nominal amount of reading and research. Especially, compared to an english or history major with an average of 500 pages of required reading per week.
4) There is increasing requirement for certifications/college for jobs. In NY, home appraisers never need a college degree. It's a job which easily done without it. In a couple of years, NY will require home appraisers to have a BA. How does this make sense? It doesn't - any more than requiring a master's for a librarian.
I think college is great. However, it should not be our only path into the middle class.
Both I and my wife have first hand experience in what happens when you lower educational requirements for a position.
The higher educational requirements result in remarkably better candidates. Lowering it meant we were firing those people in 6 months or less for lack of competence and ability to do the job. Every time. We will not lower the requirement for a bachelors degree again. Probably don't need to raise it to master's though, since our jobs are not subject-specific. But masters people are usually stronger.
I suspect most businesses have had a similar experience and that's why they have the requirements they do.
Librarians do a lot more than shelve books. Interns and volunteers do the shelving. Librarians are digitial information managers, event coordinators, etc... A library is basically a business and a Library Science masters is basically an MBA.
Last edited by redguard57; 06-05-2021 at 02:08 PM..
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