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Nope...that's not what I'm saying. You are just using typical liberal speak to paint an opposing point of view as extreme, to make your point of view seem caring and logical. That is a tactic that most liberals use.
A bit heavy on the liberal bashing, a bit light on the truth, eh?
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Originally Posted by spm62
Of course I could do the same thing, but to the other extreme......what you're saying is........it is ok for some people to be lazy, never plan, never try to achieve anything, because when anything bad happens, we'll just get the government involved and they will make the hard working middle class, who did plan, had initiative, and worked to make life better for the family, pay for it. In other words " give me mine off the backs of others, but to hell with the hard working middle class?
You must be one of those people stuck in 1950 where a person with barely a high school diploma could walk down to the local factory and get a solid middle class job just for having a pulse.
In case you haven't noticed, good jobs are awfully hard to come by, even for those who are educated. The majority of jobs created in the last 10 years have been low-wage. So it seems rather ridiculous to expect people making $20k per year to somehow plan and save and chart their path all the way to retirement so that they remain completely self-sufficient.
Secondly, a lot of businesses are ripping off the government by using the welfare system to supplement wages. Businesses figure they can pay people far less than they're worth knowing their employees can just go get welfare to prop up their peanut paycheck. Hey, why should I have to actually pay my employees when I can let the government do it!
Finally, you make it sound like everyone is capable of working a middle-to-upper middle class job. NO. And we wouldn't want that anyway. If we didn't have people doing the low-wage job, our economy would come to a screeching halt considering they're the ones ringing up the purchases, keeping the places clean, interacting with the customers, running the machines that make the products, preparing and serving your food. You think that these folks are just being lazy and failing to plan? They probably work harder than you do but will NEVER make enough money to have a real retirement or insurance; they will be completely reliant on Social Security and Medicare.
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Originally Posted by spm62
Well, I think if anybody deserves to have the best benefits, then it is our veterans who risked their lives and made a sacrifice for this country and not politicians who make laws to benefit them and in the process destroy the country.
No argument there.
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Originally Posted by spm62
But my guess is you are probably hypocritical like most liberals. Unless you are giving Every Penny you possibly can to help world hunger, clothe the naked, invite the homeless in your house, giving up all of your free time to help those less fortunate than yourself, then you really have no argument.
LOL! Sure, and if we gave every penny we possibly could to help world hunger, etc., then we would become a part of the hungry, naked, and homeless population. At any rate, you're just plain wrong about that. Most of us liberals don't have issues paying taxes to help the poor and needy. We would certainly rather do that than pay taxes for, say, foreign wars and a bloated defense budget that is larger than the next 19 nations combined.
No one is suggesting that anyone live in poverty in order to help the poor. I didn't say that. Has anyone else? One of the points I've consistently made, however, is that the biggest complainers are people who already live very well. It's really quite amazing to me that anyone so blessed would spend so much of their time staring across the railroad tracks and growling about the people over there who are sick, poor, and often elderly. What MORE do those well-off people need, and is that need SO important that it must come from the empty pockets of the impoverished and the frail bodies of the sick and old?
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Originally Posted by spm62
My guess is, once you get what other developed nations have, you might long for the good old days. There is a reason those people in the other developed nations want to come here more than anywhere else. That has long been the case. But as we adopt more and more liberal policies, that will change, because we will become just like the countries they are trying to leave.
Heh, you act like America is the only country that has a lot of immigrants. Europe is being flooded with people from the middle and far east. The only immigrants we really get are people south of the border - because hey, it's a lot easier than sailing across the Atlantic or Pacific. I'm sure most of them would MUCH rather go to a nation with universal health care, but you have to take what you can get unless you have a large boat and know how to navigate the oceans.
Does everyone have a right to healthcare? No. The Constitution gives you your rights and healthcare is not on there.
You have a right to it, if you can pay for it in my book. I work hard and many people don't so I have to pay for their laziness. I'm not talking about a 80 year old woman who has health issues and can't work. I'm talking about those 30 somethings who collect a check I and others pay for every month yet they have an iPhone, cable, fancy cars, designer jeans, etc. Don't tell me it's only a handful of people because it's not. Come down to my local WalMart and you'll see first hand how many fall into this and most have more children than they can count. I see one every few weeks with her stack of WIC checks and 6 kids under the age of 8. Then out comes with EBT card. She drives a nice Cadillac SUV. She has a blinged out smartphone and jeans with bling on them that I know didn't come from WalMart.
Is it her right to get free healthcare? Nope. She has the right to "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness" according to the Declaration of Independence.
We've gotten out of control in this country with regards to healthcare. All these studies saying this or that is killing people. People do NOT live forever! We're ALL going to die from something someday! We were never meant to all live to 92 years old and healthy up until our last breath.
People can't say goodbye or deal with death well. It's a fact of life.
Why should millions of dollars in medical be spent on someone who is dying? Why not just make them comfortable?
I saw this with my father-in-law. He had health issues and ignored them until months or years later Turns out he had colon cancer for who knows how long and prostate cancer. Well, as cancer does it metastasized into yet another cancer - incurable liver cancer. He and his doctors went on crazy treatments to cure him even though they knew he would never be cured. He had numerous operations and often times he was opened up and they found there was nothing they could do. This went on for 4 years. His bills were in the millions. And you know what. He died from liver cancer! Was that money well spent? Not in my book. His quality of life was so poor for years that he was bedridden for years. He spent more time at doctor's offices and hospitals than he did home for 3 years. He was miserable during this time. I'll never understand why he just didn't accept what was happening and enjoy his life while his quality of life while he had one.
We are not a Parliamentary Democracy. We can't vote on anything and everything. Congress has limitations on what kind of laws it can pass. Congress, like the President, when they take the oath, they swear to uphold the Constitution, nothing less, nothing more.
Our Supreme Court in its history has made some horrendous decisions, upholding for example slavery, or legitimize discrimination. It has taken American blood overturning these "Laws of the Land" that Supreme Court has upheld.
History has shown that Supreme Court is not Final Word. It is the American people, with their blood and tears who have ultimately decided what to do with the Supreme Court decision.
That's how it should be.
Everybody who sees a Supreme Court decision they don't agree with says what you have.
It doesn't change the fact that our system gives the Court--not you or any fringe political group--the power to say what the Constitution means.
If you seriously think people are willing to engage in a violent revolution to keep fellow Americans from having things like health care and social security than go on dreaming.
Court's decisions have been overturned. Abolition of slavery, or discrimination, or equal voting rights were not fringe. Radical left of today is the fringe, regardless of its typical war and character asssasination of political opponents, framing, defining the majority of the American people, who oppose the Health Law, as fringe!!! Talk about delusion and perfected propaganda in lock-step.
For those of us, familiar in theory and practice with tyrannical regime, it's actually quite remarkable, the resemblance of your expression to that of Lenin and Marx. It's in fact very little day-light between them and present day radical left which you represent.
And you could care less about the people and their healthcare, so cut the BS. It is in fact the opposite.
Court's decisions have been overturned. Abolition of slavery, or discrimination, or equal voting rights were not fringe. Radical left of today is the fringe, regardless of its typical war and character asssasination of political opponents, framing, defining the majority of the American people, who oppose the Health Law, as fringe!!! Talk about delusion and perfected propaganda in lock-step.
For those of us, familiar in theory and practice with tyrannical regime, it's actually quite remarkable, the resemblance of your expression to that of Lenin and Marx. It's in fact very little day-light between them and present day radical left which you represent.
And you could care less about the people and their healthcare, so cut the BS. It is in fact the opposite.
Wow....let's review this discussion. You essentially told me that Supreme Court decisions were irrelevant because they are often wrong. I countered by saying that right or wrong that's how our system functions. That's how the system designed by our Founding Fathers determines what is constitutional and what is not.
You now counter by comparing me to Lenin and Marx. You bandy words around like "socialism" and "communism" as ad hominem attacks on other posters rather than doing any real thinking. I've generally found these words are crutches for people who aren't very thoughtful. You think that a law which was passed by a super majority of senators and a majority in the House of Representatives does not reflect the will of the majority. Interesting isn't it, that our President was re-elected with a 4% margin over his opponent two years after the passage of this "unpopular law".
I have no wish to continue a dialogue with someone is utterly irrational and does nothing, but engage in name-calling. Have a nice day.
As cruel as this is, I don't object to anyone having this opinion.
What irritates me are those who have this sort of "laisse faire" view of life who believe their view should prevail even when a majority of people of the people of this country have signaled that they don't agree with this point of view.
We don't decide issues like this based on what a few individuals want. We hold elections and we elect representatives to Congress. If that Congress decides on programs to extend financial assistance to the impoverished than that is the law. If Congress decides to set up a program that mandates universal health care and the constitutionality of that program is upheld by our Supreme Court than, that too, is the law of the land.
Now, those people who advocate the point of view expressed above will try to make all sorts of arguments. They'll claim the laws are "unconstitutional" even when the highest court of the land says that they are. They will insist that no one has the right to make them pay taxes to support programs that they disagree with. Wrong, they don't get that choice in our country or the other ones that I know of.
If they don't like the ACA or any other piece of social legislation rather than sitting here posting on CDF, they should be out campaigning to have the laws repealed. If they succeed, than their viewpoint will prevail. If not, they can either accept the outcome or consider moving to a country that is not concerned with the welfare of all its citizens. Its that simple.
I am not sure what so many people find revolting about ACA.
As a society we have pretty much said that my view is unacceptable....that we don't wish to leave the less fortunate along the road of life. That we wish to carry them.
That is fine.
What the ACA will do, in part, is say that societies' view has a cost, and we will all share in the paying of that cost. We have said we want health care, and now we have said that everyone agrees to pay for it.
I have absolutely no problem with that. In fact, I applaud the decision. As one who has always paid, or been fortunate enough to have health insurance, my costs will now go down, as I will no longer be paying for the uninsured who still wish to have the same level of care as the person who is paying. The knucklehead who refuses to wear a helmet while crashing his motorcycle must now pay his own way. He can no longer have it both ways: I want the care, but I don't want to pay for it so will go to the emergency room (the NOST expensive form of care) and everyone else who pays will cover my costs.
No more free rides for those that want the health care, but don't wish to pay for it.
Don't misrepresent what I said. No one said often SCOTUS is overturned. I mentioned 2 major decisions SCOTUS got wrong. It's just an illustration that in a major issue, such as healthcare SCOTUS word might not be the final word.
You find historical facts irrational. Facts are facts, but that does not stop political delusion, does it?
Victory in one election cycle does not determine the course of history. Healthcare debacle has just started, and it will be played out in years to come. No major issue has been determined in a snap. More to come.
Does everyone have a right to healthcare? No. The Constitution gives you your rights and healthcare is not on there.
You have a right to it, if you can pay for it in my book. I work hard and many people don't so I have to pay for their laziness. I'm not talking about a 80 year old woman who has health issues and can't work. I'm talking about those 30 somethings who collect a check I and others pay for every month yet they have an iPhone, cable, fancy cars, designer jeans, etc. Don't tell me it's only a handful of people because it's not. Come down to my local WalMart and you'll see first hand how many fall into this and most have more children than they can count. I see one every few weeks with her stack of WIC checks and 6 kids under the age of 8. Then out comes with EBT card. She drives a nice Cadillac SUV. She has a blinged out smartphone and jeans with bling on them that I know didn't come from WalMart.
Is it her right to get free healthcare? Nope. She has the right to "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness" according to the Declaration of Independence.
We've gotten out of control in this country with regards to healthcare. All these studies saying this or that is killing people. People do NOT live forever! We're ALL going to die from something someday! We were never meant to all live to 92 years old and healthy up until our last breath.
People can't say goodbye or deal with death well. It's a fact of life.
Why should millions of dollars in medical be spent on someone who is dying? Why not just make them comfortable?
I saw this with my father-in-law. He had health issues and ignored them until months or years later Turns out he had colon cancer for who knows how long and prostate cancer. Well, as cancer does it metastasized into yet another cancer - incurable liver cancer. He and his doctors went on crazy treatments to cure him even though they knew he would never be cured. He had numerous operations and often times he was opened up and they found there was nothing they could do. This went on for 4 years. His bills were in the millions. And you know what. He died from liver cancer! Was that money well spent? Not in my book. His quality of life was so poor for years that he was bedridden for years. He spent more time at doctor's offices and hospitals than he did home for 3 years. He was miserable during this time. I'll never understand why he just didn't accept what was happening and enjoy his life while his quality of life while he had one.
Why do you seem to think dying is just so simple? Many people, even if they have a deadly illness, want to do whatever they can to keep living. Life can be so beautiful and you can't just give up on it. What would you say to a 25-year-old who has stage 3 brain cancer? Just die? That person has barely begun living. He should try whatever treatments necessary to get rid of the cancer. I personally don't think you can put a price on someone's life. I don't care if it costs $20,000 or $2 million to keep someone alive; every person deserves a fighting chance to live.
Why do you seem to think dying is just so simple? Many people, even if they have a deadly illness, want to do whatever they can to keep living. Life can be so beautiful and you can't just give up on it. What would you say to a 25-year-old who has stage 3 brain cancer? Just die? That person has barely begun living. He should try whatever treatments necessary to get rid of the cancer. I personally don't think you can put a price on someone's life. I don't care if it costs $20,000 or $2 million to keep someone alive; every person deserves a fighting chance to live.
That's very true. That is another problem with Universal HC in other countries -- rationing of care. A life has become a matter of "dollars and cents."
At least for the one who could ill-afford it. On the study I posted, income gradient for Socialized Healthcare n Canada is higher than capitalistic HC in US. It's an ironic fact that proponents of Socialized Medicine do not mention.
Does everyone have a right to healthcare? No. The Constitution gives you your rights and healthcare is not on there.
It is a de facto right, just like marriage is a de facto right. One of the ways you can tell a right from a privilege is whether or not the government can take it away from you as a punitive action. Since the government cannot deny you health care as a punitive action, then it is a de facto right.
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Originally Posted by ss20ts
You have a right to it, if you can pay for it in my book.
Ah yes, the worship of the almighty dollar. No compassion, no empathy, just the cruel and soulless calculations of the bottom line. What a miserable way to live, like an automaton, some sort of living computer that can think but can't feel.
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Originally Posted by ss20ts
I work hard and many people don't so I have to pay for their laziness.
Good ol' right-wing propaganda at its best right there. Yes, they're ALL lazy, every last one of them, so if they can't work, to hell with them! Kick them to the curb, throw 'em in the street. If they're not working, they're lazy. If they're working but not making enough, it's their fault for not becoming a nuclear physicist or something. If they're disabled, they're faking it. By golly, MONEY, dammit! That's what matters in this world.
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Originally Posted by ss20ts
I'm talking about those 30 somethings who collect a check I and others pay for every month yet they have an iPhone, cable, fancy cars, designer jeans, etc.
LOL! More right-wing Limbaugh nonsense. It never ceases to amaze me how easy it is for people to fall for even the big whopper lies that are told to divide us and turn the middle class against the poor. I mean, seriously, designer jeans? Who the hell wears "designer jeans" any more? You can tell the person who created this meme was probably in their 50's.
Fancy cars? Haha! Well, you should look to the middle class and weathy folks scamming the system because you aren't buying fancy cars on welfare, let me tell you that. I do find it rather dubious that all of these right-wingers seem to possess intimate knowledge of what all the poor people own. How does that work, exactly? Do you break into poor people's houses at night? If you see someone with an iPod, do you pickpocket their wallet to see if they have a food stamp card in there? And how many poor people invite you over to their house to watch cable televsion, I wonder?
Stop spreading lies and realize that you're repeating a meme, not factual information.
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Originally Posted by ss20ts
Don't tell me it's only a handful of people because it's not.
I'm going to tell you that it's a handful of people because it is. Stop listening to Rush and Fox News. That's the best advice I can give you. Yeah, I know ... you're going to say that you don't listen to Rush or watch Fox. That's what they all say. But you're still spreading their lies even if you got the lies from a second-hand source.
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Originally Posted by ss20ts
Come down to my local WalMart and you'll see first hand how many fall into this and most have more children than they can count.
Wow, more than they can count? Are you sure this is your local Wal-Mart or is it your local Hyperbole-Mart? Oh, and how do you know they're on welfare? Do you follow them around? Spy on them? Invade their privacy? Do you know if the kids even all belong to the same mother? Could there be nieces and nephews and cousins in that gaggle? Oh, but who cares, right, when you can just make wild assumptions that bolster your unsubstantiated arguments. I have yet to see a single statistic from an actual reputable source. Just you repeating the same old tired memes and lies that right-wingers have been spewing for the last 20 years.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ss20ts
I see one every few weeks with her stack of WIC checks and 6 kids under the age of 8. Then out comes with EBT card. She drives a nice Cadillac SUV. She has a blinged out smartphone and jeans with bling on them that I know didn't come from WalMart.
Wow, I cannot BELIEVE you're repeating the old "WIC Checks, EBT card, and Cadillac SUV meme." Do you even understand how many times that exact same story has been repeated? It's a load of nonsense. The only thing you missed was that it's usually a Cadillac Escalade, but a Cadillac SUV is close enough. Wow, I really had hoped this lie had finally been put to bed, but here you are, repeating it verbatim. Wow, the Cadillac dealerships must be making an absolute KILLING off the hundreds, if not thousands of welfare recipients seen by right-wingers driving those SUVs. Dayum!
I really can't stress this point enough. Your story is BOGUS and you are LYING. I know you're lying because this precise story right down to the make of the car has been repeated again and again by right-wingers, a meme passed from person to person until people can't even distinguish fantasy from personal experience - that's how powerful the meme has grown. It's actually a fascinating study on human behavior how a person can pick up a meme off the internet and believe it so strongly that he actually thinks it happened to them. I bet this would be a really good doctoral thesis.
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Originally Posted by ss20ts
Is it her right to get free healthcare? Nope. She has the right to "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness" according to the Declaration of Independence.
Oh, well, let's look at the Declaration of Independence, shall we? What most people like you miss when reading that document are the words "among these." Yes, look at the quote:
"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness."
Those words mean that "life," "liberty," and "the pursuit of happiness" are AMONG other rights not specified by the Declaration of Independence. It means that other rights exist and we get to decide what they are. We are not limited to ONLY those three things, and since health care is a de facto right, we can list that AMONG "life," "liberty," and "the pursuit of happiness."
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Originally Posted by ss20ts
We've gotten out of control in this country with regards to healthcare.
I know! Way too many people are able to see doctors, way too many people are getting medicine. I just can't fathom the number of people who are able to get life-saving treatments. What is wrong with us? We need higher death counts, more coffins, more graves. WAY too many people are surviving past their usefulness. In fact, we should adopt a society like Logan's Run where people are killed when they hit, what, 30 years-old? Okay, I'm willing to bump it up to 50. After that, DIE!
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Originally Posted by ss20ts
All these studies saying this or that is killing people. People do NOT live forever! We're ALL going to die from something someday! We were never meant to all live to 92 years old and healthy up until our last breath.
Is that what you told your mom on her death bed? "I love you mom, but damn, you weren't meant to live this long; you should have died decades ago!"
And how do YOU know what people are "meant" to do? Are you some kind of biologist? A doctor? From where did you get your medical license? Because I really don't know what makes your OPINION of how long we should live at all relevant. Oh, and if you live past 90, should I send an execution squad to your house just to make sure you don't live past when you were MEANT to?
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Originally Posted by ss20ts
People can't say goodbye or deal with death well. It's a fact of life.
Until it happens to you, of course. I'm sure you're not nearly as stoic when someone close to you is dying. No, of course not.
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Originally Posted by ss20ts
Why should millions of dollars in medical be spent on someone who is dying? Why not just make them comfortable?
And Sarah Palin thought Obamacare had death panels? Imagine of this poster was in charge of health care. Dayum!
Quote:
Originally Posted by ss20ts
He and his doctors went on crazy treatments to cure him even though they knew he would never be cured. He had numerous operations and often times he was opened up and they found there was nothing they could do. This went on for 4 years. His bills were in the millions. And you know what. He died from liver cancer! Was that money well spent?
That depends. Perhaps the doctors learned something, furthered some research goals, tested relatively new medications.
But you seem to have it out for everyone below your station, a sort of accidental aristocrat, and it reflects poorly on the American spirit. I can understand the issue of people who are very old. Is there really a point to doing treatments for a 92 year-old man with lung cancer? That was my grandfather, but he was smart enough to decline. How many more years was he going to have at his age anyway?
But these rants about women with kids, WIC checks, and the ubiquitous Cadillac SUV are just ridiculous. I'm not kidding. They are worn out stories that are just too identical to be true across the board. I've even heard people in Britain reciting the same BS. Rethink your strategy ... please!
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