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Well, calling the Russians enemies is too harsh, but one must recognise that Russia is the only military threat to Finland. That's a fact. You are not dangerous and a Russian tourist is a positive thing, but Putin is dangerous, so that's a big difference too.
I think, that I understand you.
Russia has no desire to capture you. The conflict between Ukraine and Russia is an internal conflict of the Rus. At present, Russia does not need the western lands. Russia has strategic outlet to the sea and sufficient buffering area.
The borders were created by the USSR for the purpose of the USSR, which does not equate to the borders working for 15 different countries.
But besides the main underlying issue, that was actually tolerable, however, two things were not tolerable:
1. East Ukraine, Donbass in particular, is one of the industrial areas of the country, and one of the most tax and economic contributors to the country. However, there has been constant grumblings about the area getting its taxes taken from them, and given to the poorer west, who many feel are not "Ukrainians" but Poles/Hungarians under the guise of being Ukrainian.
Having been under Polish & Austro-Hungarian control at various stages does not have any effect on ethnicity. State borders & ethnicity are not the same thing. And you'll see Ukraine's present borders closely correspond to Ukrainian ethnicity. Many of the Russian speakers in the east of the country are ethnic Ukrainians who underwent linguistic Russification. It is a deception when, e.g., Kremlin propaganda talks about the Russian-speaking east, because most of it is still nevertheless ethnically Ukrainian.
It is quite clear from this ethnographic map, based on 2001 census data. Clearly, your nonsense claims about a large contemporary Polish & Hungarian presence in Western Ukrainian is refuted. Hungarians are a relatively small minority even in Zakarpatska Oblast. Ukrainians are still the majority there.
I have an uncle whose family tree is from Odesa & Kharkiv, and I can state clearly that his Ukrainian identity is the same as that of the Western Ukrainian part of my family, except for Catholic/Orthodox religious differences (meaningless in my eyes - most of the country is Orthodox, but Ukrainian Catholics are still very proud Ukrainians).
Quote:
Originally Posted by boxus
Was an armed revolt the best solution? Probably not, but maybe at the moment it seemed the optimal solution to a 20+ year old problem that the Ukrainian gov was not solving. Is Russia involved? of course, but Russia would not be involved at all if there was not a massive local support for their involvement.
It is not "massive local support" - it is a sizable minority who are the terrorists, who are greatly facilitated by Russian support. Without that Russian support, what they're doing wouldn't be possible, and there'd be no war going on right now because of it.
Having been under Polish & Austro-Hungarian control at various stages does not have any effect on ethnicity. State borders & ethnicity are not the same thing. And you'll see Ukraine's present borders closely correspond to Ukrainian ethnicity. Many of the Russian speakers in the east of the country are ethnic Ukrainians who underwent linguistic Russification. It is a deception when, e.g., Kremlin propaganda talks about the Russian-speaking east, because most of it is still nevertheless ethnically Ukrainian.
It is quite clear from this ethnographic map, based on 2001 census data. Clearly, your nonsense claims about a large contemporary Polish & Hungarian presence in Western Ukrainian is refuted. Hungarians are a relatively small minority even in Zakarpatska Oblast. Ukrainians are still the majority there.
I have an uncle whose family tree is from Odesa & Kharkiv, and I can state clearly that his Ukrainian identity is the same as that of the Western Ukrainian part of my family, except for Catholic/Orthodox religious differences (meaningless in my eyes - most of the country is Orthodox, but Ukrainian Catholics are still very proud Ukrainians).
It is not "massive local support" - it is a sizable minority who are the terrorists, who are greatly facilitated by Russian support. Without that Russian support, what they're doing wouldn't be possible, and there'd be no war going on right now because of it.
*Sigh*
Let me just show you another map, so that you'd understand that all your blubbering about "we are all ethnic Ukrainians" and "no massive support," "terrorists facilitated by Russians" is not more than garbage spewed by Ukrainian propaganda.
Here it goes;
This is the anatomy of the Ukrainian coup d'etat. Take note how the language border coincides with the "mass protests" against Yanukovich government, and THEN tell your stories about your "uncle from Odessa"
( And before you'll start saying how it's all "Putin paid propagandists," pay attention at the source of this map; this is Washington Post. )
*Sigh*
Let me just show you another map, so that you'd understand that all your blubbering about "we are all ethnic Ukrainians" and "no massive support," "terrorists facilitated by Russians" is not more than garbage spewed by Ukrainian propaganda.
Here it goes;
This is the anatomy of the Ukrainian coup d'etat. Take note how the language border coincides with the "mass protests" against Yanukovich government, and THEN tell your stories about your "uncle from Odessa"
You wrongly think that the Maidan was due to language.
*Sigh*
Let me just show you another map, so that you'd understand that all your blubbering about "we are all ethnic Ukrainians" and "no massive support," "terrorists facilitated by Russians" is not more than garbage spewed by Ukrainian propaganda.
Here it goes;
This is the anatomy of the Ukrainian coup d'etat. Take note how the language border coincides with the "mass protests" against Yanukovich government, and THEN tell your stories about your "uncle from Odessa"
( And before you'll start saying how it's all "Putin paid propagandists," pay attention at the source of this map; this is Washington Post. )
Your information does not refute mine. In fact, I explained in my post why it doesn't.
Disagreeing with or not partaking in the protests does not translate to agreeing with Russian aggression against Ukraine and occupation of Ukraine.
Most Ukrainians (who I will restate do make up the majority in the areas of your map shaded as predominately Russian-speaking, sans Crimea) do not supporting separating from Ukraine. That is a fact and it's the only relevant fact of the matter, because the topic at issue is Russian aggression, not protests or change in government, which are both internal Ukrainian concerns. This is why the Ukrainian/Russian ethnic distinction is the most relevant one. Simply stated, ethnic Ukrainians want Ukraine to stay together, regardless of political differences.
You'll notice here the results are broken down by region & native language. A majority of residents of eastern Ukraine, as well as a majority of Russian-speaking residents of eastern Ukraine, support keeping Ukraine together.
I understand your deep feelings. Im genuinely surprised to your speech about that Russian know what is really happening in LDNR. I guess that you have never been there, either before or during the war. I was there in the summer 2014 with a specific mission. I wasnt as a military and as a civilian in the heart of border conflict. What kind of atrocities against the civilian population, you write I dont understand. Yes there were civilian casualties, but they are random.
And how do you picture these "random" civilian casualties? Some soldiers passed by and killed some hapless passers-by? No, Poroshenko unleashed a terror on the civilian population of the Eastern part of the country; when your life and your children's life is at risk every day, when you have to sit in basements for weeks, when your house is destroyed - yes, these are terrorist tactics when you force people to leave or to live in this horror.
I mean the initial images that started coming from Ukraine were staggering - they were hard to miss.
And there were a lot of them; they were describing the situation better than any words.
They come in any war. If Ukrainian army deliberately destroyed the civilian would have been hundreds of thousands victims. But that didnt happen.
Oh so IT IS the war after all, not some "anti-terrorist operation" thought up by genius Poroshenko, to cover up the criminal activities of his?
Ukranian Army DELIBERATELY destroy civilians by the way - it has been noted and reported on quite a few occasions already. The thing is - they do not destroy them in such numbers, that it would become TOO obvious to the "civilized world," so that the narrative of the "democratic freedom-loving Ukrainian government" would be still pushed through in the Western media. That's all to it.
Quote:
I assume that you are a RT-zombie, or a paid propagandist.
You mean paid by Putin and Co?
But I don't live in Russia precisely because I don't want to live in Putin's Russia.
In fact I believe that blood of these people is on his hands as much as it's on the hands of Poroshenko and whoever supports him. The reason I think so, is because Putin basically betrayed these people in Eastern Ukraine and decided to make a bargaining chip out of them. It happens when money rule, and with Putin that's precisely what's going on.
Oh so IT IS the war after all, not some "anti-terrorist operation" thought up by genius Poroshenko, to cover up the criminal activities of his? Ukranian Army DELIBERATELY destroy civilians by the way - it has been noted and reported on quite a few occasions already. The thing is - they do not destroy them in such numbers, that it would become TOO obvious to the "civilized world," so that the narrative of the "democratic freedom-loving Ukrainian government" would be still pushed through in the Western media. That's all to it.
This is a cynical lie.
If there are individual facts that it was an accident and not a system.
I can give you the facts that I know. As a result of the missile attack by the Russian army from the territory of Russia Ukrainian civilians were killed. This happened as a result of the detonation of ammunition. But I cant think of the idea that the Russian wanted to kill civilians purposefully.
And how should act Ukrainian army when representatives of terrorist ogranization "Russian Orthodox Army" has placed its position in the center of the village? In the vicinity of the house and from there led fire on the Ukrainian position? They were covered with women and children. This is a terrorist tactic. And this they suggested Putin. He is the chief terrorist in the world today.
P.S. Donetsk was saying farewell today to its hero, the one that Western media hurriedly christened "warlord" and "patriotic Ukrainians" - "terrorist."
Thousands of people came to pay respect to him, but I'll have to check on numbers.
I was listening to Strelkov yesterday too; he explained why Motorola was so vehemently hated by Ukrainians. His name was connected to the victories in most decisive battles in the on-going war.
Therefore he confirmed what I was saying another day, that Arseny Pavlov was not targeted by "Kremlin" or was involved in the "internal conflicts" as "other warlords" - he was targeted by Ukrainian SBU first of all. This is important to take note of, since Ukrainian officials are already feeding Western media with these false rumors. I reason that IF ( that is a big "if") Motorola's death will be regarded as the violation of the cease-fire and will lead to yet another spiral of military actions on DNR side, Poroshenko and Co will not want to take the blame for it, but to point their collective finger at someone else.
why Motorola was so vehemently hated by Ukrainians.
Let's see... killing Ukrainian POWs will do it...
And ceasefire? Russian terrorists violate that constantly via sniper and artillery fire.. Ukrainians come under fire from terrorists on regular basis using weaponry banned under Minsk. A ceasefire must be mutual, but Russian terrorists and their supporters want only Ukrainians to stop firing. I wonder why..
Russian terrorists routinely violate ceasefires these days, and you bet the toll in Ukrainian lives angers me. For example, October 14, Day of the Defender, 2 more Ukrainian soldiers killed by Russian/terrorist artillery fire. Russian terrorists observe no "ceasefire" and use artillery and sniper fire against Ukrainians.
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