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Old 08-10-2020, 06:18 PM
 
26,777 posts, read 22,529,485 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DKM View Post
You don't think Belarus could prevent an armed incursion by Russia?.

What is there, that Putin needs in Belorus?

Quote:
I believe they could fight them off. Tough people there. But whoever rules them isn't their choice

You mean slavery to IMF is their choice?
Being a cheap labor somewhere in Poland is their choice?

Yeah right.
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Old 08-10-2020, 06:27 PM
DKM
 
Location: California
6,767 posts, read 3,853,283 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by erasure View Post
What is there, that Putin needs in Belorus?
You said they were not wanting the Ukraine experience...


Quote:
Originally Posted by erasure View Post
You mean slavery to IMF is their choice?
Being a cheap labor somewhere in Poland is their choice?

Yeah right.
It's their choice to make or not make.

Belorussians and Russians have no choice. Its those in power who gain from nothing changing who make the decisions however it suits them. People who have nothing to gain don't care, but younger people do (If I believe what young people were saying in Minsk)
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Old 08-10-2020, 06:37 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DKM View Post
Hmm, I don't know... the salaries in Kyiv are higher than Minsk. No police state, freedom to travel to Europe, make their government accountable... don't be so sure all Belarusians don't want what Ukrainians have.

Uhm. "No police state."

The NATIONALIST state instead, with bunch of thugs ruling the streets.

( By the way I am listening to Sharij now. While Zelensky is sending a message to Lukashenko about the "rights of Belorussians," he ( Zelensky that is) has canceled the local election in Donbass on CONTROLLED by Ukraine territories.




https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bZEfZr9ohsI



Overall, there are a lot of Ukrainians coming to comment on Belorussian election and the latest "Maidan" attempt there.
Very few are encouraging Belorussians to go for it.

The overwhelming majority of Ukrainians warn Belorussians "don't do it," siting deepening poverty, destroyed healthcare system and sky-rocketing energy prices.

The funniest ( and most popular) comment I saw so far was "To all would-be maidansists of Belorussia - let's trade. Take our clown ( Zelensky,), give us your "Dad" ( Lukashenko) instead."
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Old 08-10-2020, 06:58 PM
DKM
 
Location: California
6,767 posts, read 3,853,283 times
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I'm seeing lots of videos of people fighting back in Minsk. Police are shutting down intersections at multiple places but sometimes they are getting attacked in the process. I'm impressed with their courage but how many support them? Looks like a lot right now... the barricades went up but they sent army dump trucks into smash them apart. This could develop into a different situation easily. I saw a city bus driver was killed by a police grenade. I don't know Belorussians tolerance for abuse from un elected rulers but I'm going to find out soon.
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Old 08-10-2020, 07:26 PM
DKM
 
Location: California
6,767 posts, read 3,853,283 times
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Full list of countries whose leaders congratulated incumbent Lukashenka with his "victory" in the presidential election in Belarus:

- China
- Russia
- Kazakhstan
- Azerbaijan
- Uzbekistan
- Tajikistan
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Old 08-10-2020, 08:24 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DKM View Post
You said they were not wanting the Ukraine experience...
That's why I asked you this question.

In Ukraine, Putin clearly wanted Crimea that was strategically important for Russia.

What's that he wants in Belorussia, that he'd be willing to proceed with any "incursion"?

Quote:
It's their choice to make or not make.
Correct.
But you sound as if it's definitely a very attractive choice, that no one would reject.

However now, when Belorussians are looking at Ukraine's experience, they are already not in a rush to jump on this chance.

Otherwise practically everyone would vote against Lukashenko.

Quote:
Belorussians and Russians have no choice.
When they have a choice to sit under their respective suppressive governments or to go in slavery to IMF, that's not really a great choice either, as Ukrainian experience is showing us.

So the REAL choice that they should have to begin with, is to change things in their own countries ( or rather their own country, since really - Russia proper/Belorussia/"Russia minor" ( aka "Ukraine") - it's all one and the same country.

But THIS was difficult to achieve until recently, precisely for a reason of a predator being out there, pulling the financial strings and setting traps of financial slavery.
I am pointing at US/IMF of course, because this kind of traps serve the direct American interests both in financial and geopolitical sense.

However THIS factor started changing recently with American "left" going bezerk.
This implosion of US ( and preoccupation of US government with internal problems - add Covid there,) will give an opening for the RUSSIAN LEFT to emerge on a scene and to make the necessary changes/adjustments in the government.
This way the playing field will be leveled, and with that, Russians/Belorussians/Ukrainians will finally have a choice for real, whether they want to stick to the values of their own culture OR they want to serve money ( i.e. the US.)
But whatever their choice will be, it's going to be made on a personal basis, without pulling the rest of unwilling into the next "Maidan."

Quote:
Its those in power who gain from nothing changing who make the decisions however it suits them. People who have nothing to gain don't care, but younger people do (If I believe what young people were saying in Minsk)
Correct.

Kinda.

That is if we'll come to a logical conclusion that at least PART of the Russian government sitting in Kremlin in fact works for the US interests while transferring funds abroad, on offshore accounts and so on, instead of using them for development of the Russian economy.
And THIS creates problems for Belorussia and "Russia minor" ( aka Ukraine,) that need the resources of "Russia proper" to work in unison with other parts of the same continuum.

In fact, it creates problems for "Russia proper" as well, keeping in mind the growing conflict between Moscow and other regions ( Khabarovsk is the recent example of it.)
So yes, if I can pinpoint the "problematic knot" here, it's located in Kremlin.
But in order to get rid of this knot, the US needs to get busy with its own fake ( and crazy) "left," to back off from Europe ( which it will,) and to let RUSSIANS to get busy with their own internal changes ( bringing THEIR "left" in Kremlin, to control those sabotaging Russian national interests first of all.)


THEN and only THEN can we start talking about "people's choices."
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Old 08-10-2020, 09:02 PM
DKM
 
Location: California
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She actually got close to 90% of the vote anywhere an independent poll occurred. This isn't a vocal minority protesting over there. 33 cities across Belarus had 3000 arrests due to protests today (according to their own MCY). That's a lot for a small country. The people clearly chose to get rid of Batya (I don't know why he bothered doing it this way).

This can go a lot of ways as you well know. There are a lot more countries in the world that had revolutions besides Ukraine with different outcomes. Only Russia and China support him rigging an election, for obvious reasons. I guess we will see where it goes from here. One thing I noticed is the protesters split up into groups and roamed Minsk instead of trying to claim a square and have a Maidan. I don't know if this will work or not, but if he thinks it will die down I would not put money on that. There are videos flooding their social media right now of militarized police beating people on the ground. Its one thing to hit people standing up to cops, but when they are down and the state agents keep beating on them it tends to create anger in the population.
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Old 08-10-2020, 10:06 PM
 
26,777 posts, read 22,529,485 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DKM View Post
She actually got close to 90% of the vote anywhere an independent poll occurred. This isn't a vocal minority protesting over there.
Mhm.

Quote:
33 cities across Belarus had 3000 arrests due to protests today (according to their own MCY). That's a lot for a small country. The people clearly chose to get rid of Batya (I don't know why he bothered doing it this way).

This can go a lot of ways as you well know. There are a lot more countries in the world that had revolutions besides Ukraine with different outcomes. Only Russia and China support him rigging an election, for obvious reasons. I guess we will see where it goes from here. One thing I noticed is the protesters split up into groups and roamed Minsk instead of trying to claim a square and have a Maidan.
One thing I noticed was the presence of squads of "athletically-built" young men who were clearly trained and organized beforehand. The trademark of Ukrainian coup d'etat, you know. ( You can see them in the footage here, on "60 minutes" at 2:24, 2:35.)

But they were not as numerous as in Kiev's Maidan, and may be that's the reason why they preferred to disperse and to "roam Minsk," instead of "claiming the main square."



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bh8PaPtTTXM&t=1205s


Quote:
I don't know if this will work or not, but if he thinks it will die down I would not put money on that. There are videos flooding their social media right now of militarized police beating people on the ground. Its one thing to hit people standing up to cops, but when they are down and the state agents keep beating on them it tends to create anger in the population.
Yes, the West is trying to destabilize that part of the world, using their proxies ( Poland is already calling for "extraordinary EU summit" regarding the "tainted election" in Belorussia. Apparently things didn't go as successfully as it was planned?)

And interestingly enough, Lukashenko is saying that big part of the action against him was organized actually from Czech republic. (Are they running out of labor force I wonder? Were they already planning to get Belorussians for that, since Poland grabbed so many Ukrainians after it lost half of ITS OWN population it seems, after those "successful economic reforms?"


Questions, questions...
But yes, we'll see what's developing.
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Old 08-11-2020, 04:09 AM
 
6,467 posts, read 8,183,718 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DKM View Post
Full list of countries whose leaders congratulated incumbent Lukashenka with his "victory" in the presidential election in Belarus:

- China
- Russia
- Kazakhstan
- Azerbaijan
- Uzbekistan
- Tajikistan
I guess Kim Jong-un forgot to send his congratulations.
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Old 08-11-2020, 07:38 AM
 
9,511 posts, read 5,435,844 times
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Tikhanovskaya has fled to Lithuania. Supposedly of her own free will. She asked for the protests to stop.

Like it or not there is a silent majority in Belarus. I spoke with my ex wifes relatives in Orsha and Gomel. They all supported Lukashenko. It's the Ukraine thing. In Orsha there was a small protest of about 50 people. The cops showed up to save them from the locals. They weren't from Orsha.

Sound familiar?
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