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But when all of them become the same one big labor market, you cannot expect people from one group to be all there is. You're going to have competitive people from every group. What you're arguing for is to exclude other groups and prioritize American workers when our laws clearly say that we do not discriminate based on national origin
Ok, I'll admit my knowledge of anti-discrimination laws is lacking, but I would think if it were so simple as limits on H1B's violate antidiscrimination laws, someone would have taken the quota on visas to court and had it struck down.
Of course, any system has abuses. But you shouldn't use one brush to paint all h1bs. This is basically scapegoating. Take a look at the anti indian rants on this board. If one doesn't have the ability to work with a global workforce, which happens to include many people from India in IT, then an argument can be made that this person lacks cultural competencies. If you show up at an interview and you are visibly resentful to the people there, what do you think would happen?
I agree, not ALL h1-b's represent a abuse of the system. In fact in my post I pointed that out. But look at the numbers, the VAST majority work for companies like TATA, etc.
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The bottom line is, and both political parties agree, that we need these people. Our own young don't study stem enough. The dropout rate is high. Graduate programs rely on international students to sustain enrollment. Upon graduation, many international students look for jobs in America. People have made the argument that we should give these stem advanced degree holders a green card, so that we don't lose these talents to our competitors. We want the best and the brightest to be concentrated in America, so that we will always lead innovation and change.
No, the bottom line is that bought and paid for politicions who are being paid off agree. Most of the US population doesnt.
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Lee kuan yew, singapores founding prime minister who passed away recently, said that you can be an engineer in Japan, in Germany,but you will never be considered Japanese or german. You can go to america and become an engineer. And you can also become an American citizen. The big picture is that we as a nation benefit from talent in this knowledge economy.
Thats nice, and we do it at the expense of our American engineers. We need to find a way to not harm our own. Why is our STEM graduation rate faltering compared to other countries? H1-B programs impact us more then you recognize.
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I can understand the concerns of workers who are displaced by competition. But I do not oppose competition. Workers care about their life, that's a small picture. As a society, we need to look at the big picture. It's not about saving one person's job. It's about laying the foundation to sustain technological innovation, which comes with jobs as a byproduct.
Ahh...so tough luck for your fellow Americans, all hail big business making more money! Got it.
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The nostalgia to how things worked 40 years ago is understandable, but hardly constructive. It's a diatribe on this board. We need to look forward. Workers ahve always adapted during periods of dramatic tech changes. This time isn't any different. Our economy has picked up too, much to the disappointment of those who wish more unemployement would create a left wing paradise. They just wish they can say to people:"see, now you figured out. The rich are the problem. The employers are the problem. Now do what we tell you to do, and you will get happiness."
In 2017, Hillary Clinton will become our first female president. But our system will remain the way it is. And TPP will go through.
And you will cheer on the destruction of our middle class. Awesome.
This research study by the brookings institution found that h1b visa holders earn more than comparable native born workers. They are paid more with a bachelors degree.
I don't think so, your source is using far too broad of job categories to make this declaration.
Saying H1B workers with a bachelors degree in the profession "computer occupations" make more than native born could easily show the H1B are more often in higher paid higher skilled specialty fields as is the intent of the program.
Show me that, for example, H1B web developers in Chicago who work on .net platform for a medium sized company make more than locals with same and I'll be convinced.
An H-1B and a citizen were hired for my role before I was here. The company sponsored this person, which is expensive and time-consuming. He's a good person and very competent.
My issue isn't with him personally - it's the fact that by sponsoring him, the company is implicitly stating they can't find qualified citizens to fill the role. They've hired at least five citizens for the role after him (he's since been promoted) which proves the point there was no shortage of qualified labor.
If anything, using broader categories makes the conclusion more general because it will be more reflective of the big picture than the specific cases.
When you're comparing a guy from India writing code for microchips at Intel with an American doing data entry for State Farm it doesn't very well support the gist of the thread since it isn't a comparable native born worker. Of course the higher level more qualified and difficult job would be paid more.
Again I don't know if they actually are paid more, just saying use broad terms like "computer occupations" renders it useless if more of the foreign workers by percentage are higher skill jobs.
After reading that article on Slate, I wouldn't be surprised that American tech workers are worried about H1-b's. In programming, it isn't just about getting from point A to point B. There are many different ways to code a program. If I was a manager, I would want someone who could write the most efficient code possible while doing it fast. Big projects are done in teams and a mediocre programmer would drag down everybody. Some people, like those who don't know a thing about programming, would think then just hire two mediocre programmers. It doesn't work that way. A lousy programmer could write a program, but what if that program takes 2x the time and processing power to run than what a superstar programmer could crank out?
Wow! You just described Microsoft!
Boy I sure wish I could remember the name of that integrated OS/utilities package hat had the look and feel of the original AOL app. There were many who thot that if Gates had taken that direction he would have killed Apple.
I did a bit of coding back in the day. BASIC, Pascal, COBOL. C was the real ball buster. Maybe if I had studied Donald Knuth, I could have pursued programming as a career. Instead I did what all failed workers do - became a manager.
I agree, not ALL h1-b's represent a abuse of the system. In fact in my post I pointed that out. But look at the numbers, the VAST majority work for companies like TATA, etc.
No, the bottom line is that bought and paid for politicions who are being paid off agree. Most of the US population doesnt.
Thats nice, and we do it at the expense of our American engineers. We need to find a way to not harm our own. Why is our STEM graduation rate faltering compared to other countries? H1-B programs impact us more then you recognize.
Ahh...so tough luck for your fellow Americans, all hail big business making more money! Got it.
And you will cheer on the destruction of our middle class. Awesome.
I can understand why some workers feel it is at their cost. But it comes down to competition. There isn't anything evil about competition. Competition makes our economy better. With all this energy to exclude people, how about work smarter and harder? Competition is a reality of the global economy. When you look for a job in San francisco and it is more competitive, is it necessarily anybody's fault? This mindset is always looking for something to blame when it's just an increase of population.
The good old days seem so good to those who were the beneficiery, but that was done by excluding minorities women and by a rather strict immigration policies. I am a social liberal and lean fiscal conservative. I believe our system is vibrant precisely because of the libertine immigration policies we have. This is where I disagree with much of the Republican Party.
Our stem graduation rates have nothing to do with immigration. Our young have always rejected stem and embraced fun fields. They want things easier with inflated grades. It's the same as workers who shy away if things become more competitive. Its a deeper level of expectations and self assumptions about self worth. In high school what is cool is to be rebellious and creative. That's not stem in General. Young people had too much everyone gets a trophy experience... It damages their ability to strive for a better future. They major in political correctness. Granted that there are pc jobs but few and not entry level. What we need is more stem education and enabling young people to strive. More education connected with employment and employers. More hands on skills and competencies. Less political education that has dominated our public universities. Less administrative waste on positions that look good and feel good. More investment in faculty who demonstrate outcomes. Less teacher unions that expand waste and prevent innovation. More merit based raises and less universal raises that ignore individual performance.
Last edited by Costaexpress; 04-23-2015 at 05:30 PM..
I don't know how anyone ( without an agenda ) can trust the study that says:
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Originally Posted by Costaexpress
The foreigners aren't paid lower. They perform better. They are assets for our companies.
The generalization that they perform better sounds a lot like:
American-citizens and green card workers are inferior.
They are assets to our companies sounds like this information comes from a biased source.
It would make more sense ( and keep congress happy ) just to attach a tax on the H1b worker's wages - similar to the matching tax on Social Security. If an H1b worker is getting hired at $70k and the employer has to pay $10k per H1b worker, then the employer would tend to only hire the H1b if there really was a shortage. After reaching, $100k then just make the tax 10%.
This is a trivial dollar increase in wages for the hirer of the H1b worker.
At a minimum, the H1b visa holder should possess a portable visa that they can then use to get another job at another company for the same length of time their current H1b visa holder gets to keep their current job. That would ensure that the employer treat them well and pay them competitive wages.
I don't know how anyone ( without an agenda ) can trust the study that says:The generalization that they perform better sounds a lot like:
American-citizens and green card workers are inferior.
They are assets to our companies sounds like this information comes from a biased source.
It would make more sense ( and keep congress happy ) just to attach a tax on the H1b worker's wages - similar to the matching tax on Social Security. If an H1b worker is getting hired at $70k and the employer has to pay $10k per H1b worker, then the employer would tend to only hire the H1b if there really was a shortage. After reaching, $100k then just make the tax 10%.
This is a trivial dollar increase in wages for the hirer of the H1b worker.
At a minimum, the H1b visa holder should possess a portable visa that they can then use to get another job at another company for the same length of time their current H1b visa holder gets to keep their current job. That would ensure that the employer treat them well and pay them competitive wages.
Interesting idea.
Do you know if any country uses this anti-foreign worker penalty? I wonder how that would turn out.
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