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There is nothing in my posts to suggest that people should not take personal responsibility for their lives. There are those that spend frivolously, but also those you do not hear about that are more responsible. I am not holding anyone blameless for wrong decisions. I was just saying we should not take fraud, wrongdoing or shameless hypocrisy/greed (giving bonuses after receiving our tax $$) lightly or look the other way because it "happens". If the thread said "Do you hold Wall Street 100% responsible for people's economic problems and individuals 0% responsible? My answer would be "NO'.
The poll was merely asking if people were still upset at Wall Street and I have a documentary to recommend with plenty of examples of fraud, wrongdoing, greed and hypocrisy by many in Wall Street'
You are trying to scapegoat the ethical/legal responsibilities of Wall Street onto the American people and I will continue to call you on it. You can change the subject all you want, but the vote is now 39-8 against you. So those on Wall Street that were reckless and violtated the law need to own up and stop scapegoating. You are clearly outnumbered. The 39 of us that voted the way we did really care about the society we are passing down to our young people and children and really have to question those that just dismiss this as no big deal. I have nothing to defend. I'll just speak my mind knowing that you are one of very few people "drinking the Wall Street apology Kool Aid".Sorry if that hurts, btw! Yours only amused me just like Mathjak..mild rebuttal at best. There will be others responding to you, too if not already.
BTW, don't we wish there were more wealthy people like Warren Buffett! If Wall Street had more like him, the problem would have been far more minimal than it was. He is admirable for more than his wealth, too.
The main reason I am posting again after my "last" comment is I now have the bame of that documentary:
Inside Job (It is narrated by Matt Damon and even has a little criticism of the Obama admin near the end so no one on the right should just dismiss it as just some leftist biased doc. There are a lot of facts and everyone should view it!). Maybe it will change a few minds.
Mathjak and I AGREE that Wall Street had bad apples, no one denies that, but you and others minimalize the mess many individuals had control over like buying way more home than they could afford and using lines of credit like an ATM to buy those 60" plasmas and new cars when they were living paycheck to paycheck.
It was not just SOME as you say. Many many people did it and are STILL doing it, racking up credit bills rather than making the tough choices to sacrifice. Ask anyone and most will know the main characters on Twilight, but they don't know how many deductions/exemptions are taken out from their w-4.....that's the main problem w/financial america today. Personal responsibility.
it sickens me how many folks i have seen walk away from their properties because they fell in value and they can well afford to pay their mortgages.
i bought my first property 2 weeks before the biggest real estate crash nyc ever saw . that was right after the stock market crash in 1987. i was in the hole by 30% when the smoke cleared.
but you know what? it was my decision to buy and my responsibility to pay for it.
today it is worth many times what i paid but the point is walking away was not an option i would even have considered.
Maybe I do get it and that's the difference. I am 65 and retired January 1, 2008 and could have been a major casualty but as of today have recovered and am ahead of the previous game plan. I have over the years been in multiple threads including two of the above. Not the frugality thread as fortunately I have not needed it. We are still saving and investing and we are one of the ones who benefited from the housing bust as we were able to pick up a place at the beach for half of what it was selling for two years earlier. We are not the only oldies to have done so at the time. I admit selling a house at 95% peak and purchased another one at about 90% peak but fortunately prices have only fallen about 10% so similar houses are selling at or about what we paid for ours and in some cases a tad more. I do know that in life I can read all the stories about group think but I better have a plan for myself. I learned a lot of this back in the Civil Rights era from the 1968 Poor Peoples March. Lots of folks went and heard some great speeches and got really pumped up but a year later for most their economic situation was still the same good or bad. For some it became a not me I better start making some decisions so it doesn't become me down the road. In short just to use some round numbers. If in September of 2007 a person had $100,000 dollars invested and in March of 2009 that had fallen to $50,000 they could had the following choices amongst others:
A. Whine and Moan
B. Complain and blame someone
C. Do and say nothing
D. say something and develop a plan for the 50K they had left
We are now four years later and counting.
Yes I am well aware of and have participated in many forum discussions over those four plus years( more earlier on) but I also knew as I did back in 1968 that group speak aside I needed a personal plan and strategy to move forward and perhaps that is in part why I am not angry.
Merely calling a spade a spade regarding what happened in the 2008 fiscal/Wall Street crisis is not the same as complaining in my view. We owe it to the next generations to be honest about it and deal with it rather than sweep it under the rug. At the same time, we do have to make smart decisions as individuals, too.
Maybe I do get it and that's the difference. I am 65 and retired January 1, 2008 and could have been a major casualty but as of today have recovered and am ahead of the previous game plan. I have over the years been in multiple threads including two of the above. Not the frugality thread as fortunately I have not needed it. We are still saving and investing and we are one of the ones who benefited from the housing bust as we were able to pick up a place at the beach for half of what it was selling for two years earlier. We are not the only oldies to have done so at the time. I admit selling a house at 95% peak and purchased another one at about 90% peak but fortunately prices have only fallen about 10% so similar houses are selling at or about what we paid for ours and in some cases a tad more. I do know that in life I can read all the stories about group think but I better have a plan for myself. I learned a lot of this back in the Civil Rights era from the 1968 Poor Peoples March. Lots of folks went and heard some great speeches and got really pumped up but a year later for most their economic situation was still the same good or bad. For some it became a not me I better start making some decisions so it doesn't become me down the road. In short just to use some round numbers. If in September of 2007 a person had $100,000 dollars invested and in March of 2009 that had fallen to $50,000 they could had the following choices amongst others:
A. Whine and Moan
B. Complain and blame someone
C. Do and say nothing
D. say something and develop a plan for the 50K they had left
We are now four years later and counting.
Yes I am well aware of and have participated in many forum discussions over those four plus years( more earlier on) but I also knew as I did back in 1968 that group speak aside I needed a personal plan and strategy to move forward and perhaps that is in part why I am not angry.
BTW, I am glad to hear that it worked out for you and your retirement plans. I was not aware any of the beach homes had survived the Sandy storm...glad to hear some did.
it sickens me how many folks i have seen walk away from their properties because they fell in value and they can well afford to pay their mortgages.
i bought my first property 2 weeks before the biggest real estate crash nyc ever saw . that was right after the stock market crash in 1987. i was in the hole by 30% when the smoke cleared.
but you know what? it was my decision to buy and my responsibility to pay for it.
today it is worth many times what i paid but the point is walking away was not an option i would even have considered.
That's part of the moral decay/lack of personal responsibility that I talk about here (that many refuse to address or want to talk about). Because you held up your end of the bargain, now you have to pay for those people who exuberated financial bad behavior.
But, lets just beat up on the convenient pinata in the room....someone else!
BTW, I am glad to hear that it worked out for you and your retirement plans. I was not aware any of the beach homes had survived the Sandy storm...glad to hear some did.
Merely calling a spade a spade regarding what happened in the 2008 fiscal/Wall Street crisis is not the same as complaining in my view. We owe it to the next generations to be honest about it and deal with it rather than sweep it under the rug. At the same time, we do have to make smart decisions as individuals, too.
That's why I had a D response because a lot of folks spoke out and said what they thought and moved on. I did. I was no fan of Wall Street etc but a lot of the folks who were also upset began to turn me off also for multiple reasons.
Mathjak and I AGREE that Wall Street had bad apples, no one denies that, but you and others minimalize the mess many individuals had control over like buying way more home than they could afford and using lines of credit like an ATM to buy those 60" plasmas and new cars when they were living paycheck to paycheck.
It was not just SOME as you say. Many many people did it and are STILL doing it, racking up credit bills rather than making the tough choices to sacrifice. Ask anyone and most will know the main characters on Twilight, but they don't know how many deductions/exemptions are taken out from their w-4.....that's the main problem w/financial america today. Personal responsibility.
You still have to hold those on the Street responsible for their fraud. It is strange that they got their huge bail outs, but a lot of Americans who admittedly may have been over optimistic could not even get the most "minor" assistance to rework their mortgage plan.
That is a double standard. What do you say about that double standard?
Then the street throws salt in their wound by giving our hard earned tax dollars as bonuses and you say nothing until finally "the "bad apples" sentence.
This crisis would have beem far less severe if those on the Street had stronger ethical values (like a Warren Buffet). Trailing 42-9 and still arrogantly asserting that we are wrong. For me, I thought the Enron scandal was the last straw and we would not have it again. With apologists like you, there is less deterrent for them to just do business as usual. BTW, I did OK. I am speaking for others that you recklessly lump in for blame. Do you both work on Wall Street? With your blame the public comments, you are also disrespecting a lot of returning veterans who sacrificed for you and senior citizens that worked hard (and obeyed the law!) their entire lives
Mathjak and I AGREE that Wall Street had bad apples, no one denies that, but you and others minimalize the mess many individuals had control over like buying way more home than they could afford and using lines of credit like an ATM to buy those 60" plasmas and new cars when they were living paycheck to paycheck.
It was not just SOME as you say. Many many people did it and are STILL doing it, racking up credit bills rather than making the tough choices to sacrifice. Ask anyone and most will know the main characters on Twilight, but they don't know how many deductions/exemptions are taken out from their w-4.....that's the main problem w/financial america today. Personal responsibility.
Yes, I never said there was no personal responsibility. However, we also have a responsibility to the next generation to call attention to the fraud and abuses that occurred and lead to the 2008 financial crisis. You two got way more than you bargained for on this thread and the vote shows it. Just "man up" and admit the loss (42-9). I am thankful for our future generations you are outnumbered.
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