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You're misinterpreting the quotes you posted. The last two deal with SAT subject tests, not the SAT. The first says students don't need to justify why they aren't submitting test results. That isn't the same thing as saying they are on equal footing. There is no world in which two students apply to Cornell with equal GPA, class rank, etc. and the one with a 1500 SAT isn't looked at better than the one without a test score.
The test-optional movement in general is a whole different discussion, but I think it has been overblown in the media because testing is looked at negatively due to disparities in outcomes between races and income levels.
Thanks for clarifying about subject tests.
However, look at the announcement from TCU:
"To assuage concerns, TCU has suspended the standardized testing requirement and will be test-optional for the high school class of 2021. International students whose native language is not English will still be required to take TOEFL (Test of English as a Foreign Language), IELTS (International English Language Testing System), or Duolingo. Students may still submit ACT or SAT results if they choose, but will not be adversely impacted if they opt out. Moreover, students who choose not to submit test scores will still be considered for academic scholarship, as well.
TCU has always applied a holistic approach to application review, never relying on a single data point. As TCU professors know their students by name in the classroom, TCU applicants are considered for admission by more than a GPA or test score. We will continue to evaluate students contextually. For students whose high schools enact a Pass/No Credit policy for final grades, TCU will focus its academic review on curricular choices and narrative accounts provided by teachers and counselors."
That is just one school, but many schools are saying the same thing. Between pass/fail grades and testing complications, many schools are taking a different approach. Heck no one even knows if high schools across the country will resume in the fall or have a complete 2020-21 school year.
You're misinterpreting the quotes you posted. The last two deal with SAT subject tests, not the SAT. The first says students don't need to justify why they aren't submitting test results. That isn't the same thing as saying they are on equal footing. There is no world in which two students apply to Cornell with equal GPA, class rank, etc. and the one with a 1500 SAT isn't looked at better than the one without a test score.
The test-optional movement in general is a whole different discussion, but I think it has been overblown in the media because testing is looked at negatively due to disparities in outcomes between races and income levels.
Excellent analysis.
As a friend, a long time professor and admissions type, likes to say in various ways..."the SAT/ACT etc. helps us understand which of the legion of HS grads with 3.7 gpa or better should go to Harvard vs. brand-X directional university." He also adds that he prefers kids with solid grades and great test scores over kids with great grades and solid test scores and that great grades and middling test scores tend to indicate problems.
_______________
The melange of special interest groups, equality over merit types, and those with sincere reservations about high impact testing get more press than they deserve.....and much of that press is bogus.....literally PR level distortion.
What grade is best to start working with a private admissions counselor? I don't have a lot of confidence that the school counselor will be able to meet my older son's needs. I suspect that my younger son will go to a private school with dedicated admissions counselors so I'm not as concerned about him.
My co-worker's son was a really motivated young man, and he was wanting to go to medical school. He applied at Duke University because 97% of their graduates were accepted into medical schools. The kid made 1250 on his SAT and with great grades was accepted. When the parents took him to Duke initially, the father had to say, "Son, how does it feel to be average?" He wasn't used to being around such smart students. And he did make it to UAB Medical School and is an oncologist in San Diego. 85 acres of timber and a 55 T Bird with 23,000 miles were sold to put the boy at Duke.
Other co-worker's son was okay in high school, but didn't make top grades. But with a SAT of 1350, he was accepted at Georgia Tech. Come to find out, Georgia Tech's SAT scores are the highest of all public colleges in the U.S. Last time I heard, the kid was working for DISH TV and finishing a PhD in Electrical Engineering at Georgia Tech.
I have a close friend that graduated at the bottom of his East Tennessee high school class. He made so low on the ACT that his school counselor told him he'd never be accepted at any college. Fortunately, a little religious college close by accepted him, and he went on student loans. All of a sudden, this low potential student found a thirst for knowledge, and he did okay in his little college. He went on to get a Masters and PhD in Chemistry at the University of Tennessee. In his thirties, he went on to Medical School and is a respected oncologist. Through all this, he had 5 daughters, and his wife was going to college--up thru Nurse Practitioner. He also has been on 53 mission trips to the farthest points of the earth. His last doctorate was in Theology, and his wife now has a Masters in Counseling. They've been in college 39 years. Whewww, what a guy.
it's one thing to be a high potential student and go to a top university and achieve one's goals. But it's another story to find someone that's a terrible student who found teachers that motivated him to make life changes. And when you can do so much for mankind medically and otherwise, it's especially great to see. And I'm so fortunate to call him a friend.
You're misinterpreting the quotes you posted. The last two deal with SAT subject tests, not the SAT. The first says students don't need to justify why they aren't submitting test results. That isn't the same thing as saying they are on equal footing. There is no world in which two students apply to Cornell with equal GPA, class rank, etc. and the one with a 1500 SAT isn't looked at better than the one without a test score.
The test-optional movement in general is a whole different discussion, but I think it has been overblown in the media because testing is looked at negatively due to disparities in outcomes between races and income levels.
Well, no. If a school actually says in its admissions criteria that you will not be disadvantaged in any way for failing to submit SATs or ACTs, then they better mean what they say. If, given the choice between equally qualified candidates they err on the side of admitting the one who submitted an SAT, then they have fraudulently marketed themselves and their admissions process. Maybe that’s how it will work in practice, but then let’s call it what it is - fraud.
I know a young lady with great grades and mediocre SAT scores who was accepted at University of Michagan's engineering program. She has been so successful there that she received a scholarship and is taking one additional year to earn her Master's degree in an engineering discipline. She has had summer internships at top companies.
I'm sure we all know stories of people who "on paper" don't measure up in one category or another, but have many accomplishments and achievements. I disagree that the testing movement is being overhyped in the media. When a University system such as The University of California is considering moving away from current standardized tests, that is development worth noting.
I myself had exceptional grades and major extracurricular activities but crappy SAT scores and was accepted to and graduated from UCLA. I went on to get two graduate degrees and spent many years teaching college courses.
If *some* schools find the need to take a more holistic approach to admissions, they might be good fits for atypical learners. Other schools that maintain the conventional approach to recruitment and admissions may continue to attract those conventional types of students.
Well, no. If a school actually says in its admissions criteria that you will not be disadvantaged in any way for failing to submit SATs or ACTs, then they better mean what they say. If, given the choice between equally qualified candidates they err on the side of admitting the one who submitted an SAT, then they have fraudulently marketed themselves and their admissions process. Maybe that’s how it will work in practice, but then let’s call it what it is - fraud.
I didn't say anything about schools that claim students won't be disadvantaged if they don't submit a score. Caligirl said (after my post that you quoted) that TCU makes such a claim, but that claim wasn't made by the three quotes she included in the post I responded to here.
Edit to add: What you're referring to is a school being "test-blind" rather than "test-optional." Very, very few schools are test-blind.
Last edited by Wittgenstein's Ghost; 05-31-2020 at 04:44 PM..
My co-worker's son was a really motivated young man, and he was wanting to go to medical school. He applied at Duke University because 97% of their graduates were accepted into medical schools. The kid made 1250 on his SAT and with great grades was accepted. When the parents took him to Duke initially, the father had to say, "Son, how does it feel to be average?" He wasn't used to being around such smart students. And he did make it to UAB Medical School and is an oncologist in San Diego. 85 acres of timber and a 55 T Bird with 23,000 miles were sold to put the boy at Duke.
Other co-worker's son was okay in high school, but didn't make top grades. But with a SAT of 1350, he was accepted at Georgia Tech. Come to find out, Georgia Tech's SAT scores are the highest of all public colleges in the U.S. Last time I heard, the kid was working for DISH TV and finishing a PhD in Electrical Engineering at Georgia Tech.
I have a close friend that graduated at the bottom of his East Tennessee high school class. He made so low on the ACT that his school counselor told him he'd never be accepted at any college. Fortunately, a little religious college close by accepted him, and he went on student loans. All of a sudden, this low potential student found a thirst for knowledge, and he did okay in his little college. He went on to get a Masters and PhD in Chemistry at the University of Tennessee. In his thirties, he went on to Medical School and is a respected oncologist. Through all this, he had 5 daughters, and his wife was going to college--up thru Nurse Practitioner. He also has been on 53 mission trips to the farthest points of the earth. His last doctorate was in Theology, and his wife now has a Masters in Counseling. They've been in college 39 years. Whewww, what a guy.
it's one thing to be a high potential student and go to a top university and achieve one's goals. But it's another story to find someone that's a terrible student who found teachers that motivated him to make life changes. And when you can do so much for mankind medically and otherwise, it's especially great to see. And I'm so fortunate to call him a friend.
I will say that I think one defense of standardized tests is that they identify kids like this. High-potential yet under- performing high school students often have bad grades but high test scores. Your friend was clearly an exception to this, but in general, standardized tests can help identify kids who have high intelligence but may not have had their head screwed on straight from ages 15-18.
I'm sure we all know stories of people who "on paper" don't measure up in one category or another, but have many accomplishments and achievements. I disagree that the testing movement is being overhyped in the media. When a University system such as The University of California is considering moving away from current standardized tests, that is development worth noting.
The University of California system is moving away from the SAT and ACT but will be replacing those tests with their own test. That hardly changes the situation. IMO, this is a dumb move because the SAT and ACT are very good at creating reliable, predictable exams based on mountains of data they have. Maybe the University of California can do just as good of a job, but maybe they can't. But it will hardly solve the issue of minorities and poor kids doing worse than rich white kids.
Prior to Covid, 98% of competitive colleges required an SAT or an ACT score. Most of the ones that had gone test-optional were small liberal arts schools, and I still maintain that students who had average or better test scores for those schools were more likely to get in than students who didn't have scores.
I think you are missing that your general point here runs both ways. Tests like the SAT and ACT help identify students who didn't do well in high school but have high potential that isn't reflected in their GPA.
The University of California system is moving away from the SAT and ACT but will be replacing those tests with their own test. That hardly changes the situation. IMO, this is a dumb move because the SAT and ACT are very good at creating reliable, predictable exams based on mountains of data they have. Maybe the University of California can do just as good of a job, but maybe they can't. But it will hardly solve the issue of minorities and poor kids doing worse than rich white kids.
Not necessarily.
11th grade students in California already take a standardized test called Smarter Balance that the UC system is considering relying on.
And the debate about using standardized tests at all is intensifying.
"UC Berkeley Chancellor Carol Christ said she is skeptical that the university would need to replace the SAT with another exam. “I believe a student’s high school record provides ample evidence of their performance,” said Christ, who has publicly supported dropping the SAT requirement, and oversaw Smith College’s move to a test-optional admissions policy while serving as president there. “We know California high schools really well. I’m not sure we do need a substitute test.”"
I didn't say anything about schools that claim students won't be disadvantaged if they don't submit a score. Caligirl said (after my post that you quoted) that TCU makes such a claim, but that claim wasn't made by the three quotes she included in the post I responded to here.
Edit to add: What you're referring to is a school being "test-blind" rather than "test-optional." Very, very few schools are test-blind.
You will debate definitions and nuances between words, but did you even read the articles I had originally posted? Lots of schools are saying the same thing, not just TCU, which you would know if you looked at my links or did a modicum of research.
Due to COVID 19, students applying to schools for Fall 2021 may not have to take the SAT or ACT. That is the point. All this was mentioned to someone who advised taking each test 3 times.
Last edited by calgirlinnc; 05-31-2020 at 05:38 PM..
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