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The thing is, the bar has not been universally set lower. My parents were both on the "advanced" track in high school however the requirements placed on me in the advanced courses were much more difficult in comparison. In order to get into a good school, you have to do more, more, more so on that level, high school is MUCH more difficult. For instance, my mom was able to get into some of the top schools in the country with a B average, 1 AP class, and no extracurriculars. To get into the same schools, I had to take 8 AP classes, 2 IB classes, 9 foreign language courses, have above a 4.0, and hold leadership roles in several clubs. Similarly, competitive colleges have not been dumbed down in the least. While the internet might make research a bit less time consuming, it is still by no means easier. In fact, it might be more competitive now because top schools can afford to be choosier on who they accept so the overall bar is higher.
On the other hand, the lower levels of both high school and college have very much been dumbed down. In Georgia we had a joke of a high school graduation exam. There is no reason that anyone should fail, and yet fail they do in droves. Because it is no longer the end of the road and there are so many bad colleges who will take them and all of their money too, the urgency of education has been removed.
when i was in undergrad in the late 80's i had a friend whose fiancee was a management major at a large public university. he ended up with a job at Frito lay, driving a delivery truck because the company instituted a policy that even their delivery drivers must have college degrees. Same with UPS ... in fact, my grad school roommate was getting her MBA and her first job at UPS was delivering packages.
I've been cleaning out my old high school stuff from the 1970s and I've found literature saying the same thing - college degree is the new high school diploma - and this was back in the late 1970s. So, apparently, this isn't a new belief.
From my perspective. I went to school and got a BS in engineering. And I was happy with that. But when I arrive at my first job I find that I'm actually at the bottom rung because there were many engineers who started at the same time as me with MS's and even PhD's.
I did what I thought would make me valueable in the workforce (go to college and get a BS with honors) and find out that I'm actually average. Pretty demotivating really.
Even more-so is that most of the union boys working on the plant floor are making just as much if not more than I am and most likely they just have hs diploma's.
I'm wondering what part of the college graduate increase is due to the "everyone goes to college" attitude of the middle class, and what part of it is from an actual need for further education in more positions. I think the Frito Lays and UPS corporate policies go a bit far, but has the average job position require knowledge above and beyond what has ever been taught in high school (or what can be taught on the job). If so, do our high schools need to incorporate this change even more?
Starting around two years ago, I started getting the impression that more people were beginning to question the need for four years of college and the price tag that goes with it when many jobs really only require a technical degree. I wonder if I am correct and how the recession has changed that. On one hand, people have less money to attend four years of school (or more) and the schools themselves have less money to award. However, I would imagine that with a high unemployment rate, employers have more choice in candidates and therefore will be hiring those with more education.
Last edited by crazyme4878; 12-17-2009 at 12:13 PM..
That's what I was trying to say. People make it sound like a bad thing that the Bachelor's degree has replaced the high school diploma. But since a high school diploma used to be sufficient, it's not such a bad thing that the 4 year degree of today is the high school diploma of 1950.
I don't believe it's necessarily a bad thing if it means we end up with a much more educated and prepared workforce. In my opinion what is a bad thing is that unlike high school, college educations are not free and they're certainly not cheap. Costs are on the rise everywhere, endowments are shrinking, state legislatures are reducing their contributions to higher education, public universities are cutting enrollments and course offerings, private universities are limiting their scholarship disbursements, thus reinforcing the preexisting notion that elite educations are indeed only for the elite.
So if the new trend is to encourage everyone to pursue higher education, there must be a more concerted effort to ensure that access to that goal is pervasive and persistent. I also believe that this shouldn't just be limited to traditional four-year institutions. There are quite a few industries acquiring a workforce comprised of individuals educated through two-year colleges and certification programs. No one should be squeezed out of an opportunity to better themselves, but unfortunately the middle and lower classes are finding that they are indeed being squeezed out.
Also, as an aside, I have a 16 year old sister. I chat with her and her friends in an attempt to gather where they all stand as to their post-high school plans. They mostly see high school as a hurdle or something from which they must escape and college as something they're told they have to do if they want "good" jobs. This view largely comes from their counselors. While I would never oversimplify it as much, I see no need to dispel them of the notion as a general proposition, but have tried to make it clear to my sister that college and high school are not two sides of the same coin. I hope she decides to challenge herself and pursue a university-level education, but I worry as the caliber of her work and discipline at the high school level has been a bit lax at times.
When I went to college in the 1980s it was a lot cheaper. I could get 12 hours (4 classes) for $500 tuition at a major state university. So, when you graduated college and couldn't find a career type job or in my case your career type job had a starting salary of $3.35/hour it wasn't that big a deal. I had no student loans.
Now it seems like college graduates have these loan payments hanging over their heads, and they need to make more than $8/hr in order to live and pay back loans. So, when they can't find that adequate paying entry level career type position, it's a bigger problem.
From my perspective. I went to school and got a BS in engineering. And I was happy with that. But when I arrive at my first job I find that I'm actually at the bottom rung because there were many engineers who started at the same time as me with MS's and even PhD's.
I did what I thought would make me valueable in the workforce (go to college and get a BS with honors) and find out that I'm actually average. Pretty demotivating really.
Even more-so is that most of the union boys working on the plant floor are making just as much if not more than I am and most likely they just have hs diploma's.
You were fresh out of college, what did you expect? You're not going to be at the top of the ladder right out of college, no matter how impressive your credentials are.
But I can understand being upset that the people with high school diplomas made as much as you.
From my perspective. I went to school and got a BS in engineering. And I was happy with that. But when I arrive at my first job I find that I'm actually at the bottom rung because there were many engineers who started at the same time as me with MS's and even PhD's.
I did what I thought would make me valueable in the workforce (go to college and get a BS with honors) and find out that I'm actually average. Pretty demotivating really.
Even more-so is that most of the union boys working on the plant floor are making just as much if not more than I am and most likely they just have hs diploma's.
Here's the thing though, as mentioned above what did you think you were going to do, come in at Jr. VP? You're the newbie. Newbie's start at the bottom, and it goes with seniority and talent from there.
Some of the union boys might have been making as much as you were then, but for sure aren't now, and may not even have their jobs. And now when they have to compete in the open market place job pool, that H.S. diploma isn't going to get them anywhere close to what they were making, or what you're making now.
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