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The OP seems like a native who has never been out and about the country much. He probably knows mostly natives who have not been out and about the country much. Thus, I believe there is a strong grass-is-always-greener sentiment among his group that he somewhat identifies with, but also not completely.
This is not unique to Cleveland. Some born and bred natives of all cities have this type of discontent I think.
You're right, I am a native Clevelander who's traveled a little bit. But, I haven't lived in any other city outside of Cleveland. I do know family and friends who have that strong "grass is always greener" mentality. They'll complain about everything from the jobs to the economy to the weather to the sports. I'm more on the fence; I enjoy living in Cleveland but I'm frustrated over the fact that it isn't more than what it really should be.
@WRnative It would be interesting to know more about this group of Clevelanders with a "major inferiority complex," which apparently includes you. What is it that you feel inferior about, especially compared to similarly sized cities in the U.S.? Do you feel these inferiority feelings are objectively justified by reality? Please explain in detail.
So what is it exactly that makes you feel that Cleveland is inferior to what other cities, and why? Are there no positive comparisons in your mind about Cleveland compared to these other cities? If you include cities such as Boston, do you realize that it and many cities have weather and climate concerns (such as hurricanes and extreme heat, or even comparable is not worse winter weather)?[/B]
OK, the group of Clevelanders that I knew with the inferiority complex are family members and friends. They'll complain about the weather, jobs, economy, segregation and racism. Plus, a lot of Cleveland expats don't help the situation either by trashing it in their current city. I don't complain about weather because that's something you can't control. But, i do get frustrated that the city could do a better job to attract jobs and create a better economy since people are moving out of more expensive cities. Also, I think I also get frustrated because you hear about other cities, including some around us, getting all the national hype about how their growing and new economies are being created while it seems CLE is still used as American's whipping boy. Seems like every time Cleveland or Ohio is on a list of something positive, it's on the list for something negative.
Are you an elderly person living in the past?
No, I'm not elderly lol I just turned 35 March 29th.
Let's see, we have the Rock Hall induction celebrations this week, the Cavs are beginning their hunt for the NBA championship once again, the Indians are considered a lock for another Central Division championship and a chance once again at World Series glory, and even Kim Kardashian is in Cleveland to deliver her baby girl.
That's Khole, not Kim. But, when the Cavs won the NBA Championship in 2016; the first thing the national media said covering the parade "1.3 million celebrated the Cavs NBA title in the streets of Downtown Cleveland, that's 3x more than the city's population." Why even go there and report something like that? The story is suppose to be about Cleveland celebrating its 1st pro sports title in 52 years. I bet they didn't report it when Detroit were having their championship parades. It's like they had to mention that to diss Cleveland in a backhanded way. A handful want to see LeBron leave for a bigger market because some of them hate coming to Cleveland during the NBA regular season and/or The NBA Finals. I'm glad to see the R&R Hall of Fame inductions starting to be in Cleveland more after being in NYC for years. And, it's great to see that it's still thriving in Cleveland after all those years, in spite of many objections to the museum being here in the first place. But, I wish the museum would stay open a little bit later.
I don't watch the Kardashians, but it would be fun if somebody told us how Cleveland is being portrayed in that show. If members of the LA leisure elite aren't dismissive of Cleveland in early spring, as winter expresses its last throes and before the annual awakening, perhaps you and others are missing something.
I don't really watch the show all like that either, but I saw the one where they all came to Cleveland. Cleveland was portrayed in a positive light for the most part, and Khole, her sisters and friends seemed to enjoy the city because they didn't have to worry being ambushed by paps every step they took.
So the question in my mind is why do you suffer from a major inferiority complex about Cleveland? The repeated expression of your sad sack attitude about Cleveland and Ohio certainly is a downer for Cleveland and Ohio. It bothers me that you never adequately explain, or explain at all, the basis for your thesis in this and other threads.
I'm not trying to be a downer, it's more like I'm expressing my anger and frustration with the city leaders are wasting Cleveland's potential. I know it can be more than what it is now. Plus, expats and Mike Polk's corny YouTube videos didn't help the situation either. I guess all I wanna yell out to the world, "We matter too!"
Why are you still living in Cleveland? What positives keep you here?
I'm still living in Cleveland because it's affordable than a lot of other cities. In most of the glamorous cities, you have to be upper class or doggone near affluent to live comfortably in those cities. What's the point of being broke in NY or California just to say you live there? Plus, I like my job working for the Cleveland Public Library, it pays nice. I hear some library systems in other cities don't pay as good for what I do.
Have you lived in other cities? If so, what were your experiences like?
OP, I have never heard of Mike Polk and I woukd wager the majority of people outside of Cleveland haven’t either.
So you know a small group of people who diss Cleveland. Well they are not representative of the whole of Cleveland. Show me a poll where it shows that most Clevelanders are dissatisfied with Cleveland because it’s my belief they are not. Neither one of us proof either way so it’s a wash.
You keep harping on the idea that Cleveland isn’t moving ahead fast enough. I gave examples of what happens when a city moves too fast and the problems that arise. You mentioned one of them yourself, I’ll quote you.
“In most of the glamorous cities, you have to be upper class or doggone near affluent to live comfortably in those cities.”
Once upon a time those cities were not glamorous, they were plain Jane cities much like Cleveland. Portland and Seattle were even much lesser cities when I first moved to the PNW decades ago. Do you really want to see Cleveland became a city grow like they did, way too fast with growth based on the accumulation of wealth achieved at the expense of those who got squeezed out because there was no planning for them? That’s how a city gets glamorous. Those are the cities I suspect you are drooling over, cities like Portland, Seattle, SanFransico,LA, SanDiego, LasVegas. The list goes on.
You have to be the most naive poster ever. You seem to be prospering here yet you continue to throw negative shade. You whine about Cleveland and you do it all over the place. That makes you, my friend, part of the the negativity and therefore part of the problem.
You keep harping on the idea that Cleveland isn’t moving ahead fast enough. I gave examples of what happens when a city moves too fast and the problems that arise.
Once upon a time those cities were not glamorous, they were plain Jane cities much like Cleveland. Portland and Seattle were even much lesser cities when I first moved to the PNW decades ago. Do you really want to see Cleveland became a city grow like they did, way too fast with growth based on the accumulation of wealth achieved at the expense of those who got squeezed out because there was no planning for them? That’s how a city gets glamorous. Those are the cities I suspect you are drooling over, cities like Portland, Seattle, SanFransico,LA, SanDiego, LasVegas. The list goes on.
You're partially making a good point. Slow and steady wins the race. And Cleveland doesn't need to rush to contend with Chicago, Miami, SF, Dallas, LA, etc. Nor should it try. A strong, vibrant Cleveland would be really good. It has the culture, location and infrastructure to support great.
Throwing up a bunch of high rises and handing out tax breaks to mega corporations or emerging industries (like many cities seem to be favoring) -- just for the sake of short-term growth -- yields disastrous consequences.
Not that I think there is any risk of this kind of "boom" happening here anytime soon.
That would take distributed job growth, creative city planning, integrated community building, and most importantly, lots of smart, young people.
There are real demographic issues here that when graphed against national/global economic trends... do not look great. It's not old people that's been fleeing NEO, it's the young people.
Pittsburg committed itself to reinvention much earlier and it shows.
Cleveland could pick up the pace. In fact, it must. The slow gentrification/revitalization of downtown, tremont, ohio city and lakewood is not enough to ward off the more obvious challenges we face both on a local level, but also on a national/global scale as well.
OP, if you are so emotionally involved with the pace of Cleveland’s progress why not get off the fence and do something about it instead of adding to the negativity you allegedly decry?
You can write to your city government representatives, run for office yourself, start a blog or a Social Media page on the subject, attend town hall meetings etc. In other words get involved with the actual process instead of constantly whining all over an Internet message board touting the negative side of Cleveland for all others to see.
Now that you have posted your age, I realize you may be too you to have caught on to a reference I made in my earlier post from the sixties. You sounded as if you were from that era. It goes, “If you are not part of the solution, your are part of the problem.”
I seems to me,when you continuously start posts about Cleveland's problems both in the Cleveland forum and elsewhere you are just spreading the negativity you claim to dislike so much over and over again.
OP, if you are so emotionally involved with the pace of Cleveland’s progress why not get off the fence and do something about it instead of adding to the negativity you allegedly decry?
You can write to your city government representatives, run for office yourself, start a blog or a Social Media page on the subject, attend town hall meetings etc. In other words get involved with the actual process instead of constantly whining all over an Internet message board touting the negative side of Cleveland for all others to see.
Now that you have posted your age, I realize you may be too you to have caught on to a reference I made in my earlier post from the sixties. You sounded as if you were from that era. It goes, “If you are not part of the solution, your are part of the problem.”
I seems to me,when you continuously start posts about Cleveland's problems both in the Cleveland forum and elsewhere you are just spreading the negativity you claim to dislike so much over and over again.
You're partially making a good point. Slow and steady wins the race. And Cleveland doesn't need to rush to contend with Chicago, Miami, SF, Dallas, LA, etc. Nor should it try. A strong, vibrant Cleveland would be really good. It has the culture, location and infrastructure to support great.
Throwing up a bunch of high rises and handing out tax breaks to mega corporations or emerging industries (like many cities seem to be favoring) -- just for the sake of short-term growth -- yields disastrous consequences.
Not that I think there is any risk of this kind of "boom" happening here anytime soon.
That would take distributed job growth, creative city planning, integrated community building, and most importantly, lots of smart, young people.
There are real demographic issues here that when graphed against national/global economic trends... do not look great. It's not old people that's been fleeing NEO, it's the young people.
Pittsburg committed itself to reinvention much earlier and it shows.
Cleveland could pick up the pace. In fact, it must. The slow gentrification/revitalization of downtown, tremont, ohio city and lakewood is not enough to ward off the more obvious challenges we face both on a local level, but also on a national/global scale as well.
It's a nice start, but it's just a start.
Excellent points.
The thing about Pittsburgh though is that it continues to lose population. Pittsburgh remains the only metro losing population due, in part, to natural decline. The city itself is still losing population; it's down to about 303,000. This is known as more deaths than births; this is known as an old population base and, in Pittsburgh's case, it's the ''oldest'' metro in the country. The Pittsburgh metro still exports lots of people, and again, due to having such an elderly population, Florida is the big winner here for these ''exports''. Pittsburgh's college education population has, no doubt, grown since 2000, but not as significantly as one would think given the great press Pittsburgh gets for being a boom-town. I like Pittsburgh so this isn't a slam on the city/metro, just the facts in the context of the discussion going on here.
Chicago is another example of a city attracting educated residents to high paying jobs clustered in the downtown and north side areas. The rest of the city is in decline, the middle class is leaving, especially poor minorities. Now the Chicago metro is losing population. While some downplay the ''poor leaving'' as an issue, the larger problem for Chicago and Illinois is the burden of carrying the city and state is growing for these high-paid, educated residents. Chicago's real estate market appreciation is stagnant and it still has a huge amount of underwater mortgages. I believe Cleveland is seeing higher valuation appreciation than Chicago at this point.
As you point out, Cleveland has started its reinvention in places like downtown, Tremont etc. The momentum of these areas should continue; as it does, the areas attach to new ''hot'' areas etc. It's a nice start, but at least it's a start. I mean there has to be a ''start'' somewhere. The broader discussion of what continues to ail Cleveland needs to realistically be addressed and discussed. Touchy topics would need to be discussed though.
So while old Rust Belt cities like Chicago and Pittsburgh are oftentimes hailed as being these boom towns, while Cleveland and Detroit, for example, are still considered laggards, all have one thing in common: city and metro populations in decline.
OP, I have never heard of Mike Polk and I woukd wager the majority of people outside of Cleveland haven’t either.
So you know a small group of people who diss Cleveland. Well they are not representative of the whole of Cleveland. Show me a poll where it shows that most Clevelanders are dissatisfied with Cleveland because it’s my belief they are not. Neither one of us proof either way so it’s a wash.
You keep harping on the idea that Cleveland isn’t moving ahead fast enough. I gave examples of what happens when a city moves too fast and the problems that arise. You mentioned one of them yourself, I’ll quote you.
“In most of the glamorous cities, you have to be upper class or doggone near affluent to live comfortably in those cities.”
Once upon a time those cities were not glamorous, they were plain Jane cities much like Cleveland. Portland and Seattle were even much lesser cities when I first moved to the PNW decades ago. Do you really want to see Cleveland became a city grow like they did, way too fast with growth based on the accumulation of wealth achieved at the expense of those who got squeezed out because there was no planning for them? That’s how a city gets glamorous. Those are the cities I suspect you are drooling over, cities like Portland, Seattle, SanFransico,LA, SanDiego, LasVegas. The list goes on.
You have to be the most naive poster ever. You seem to be prospering here yet you continue to throw negative shade. You whine about Cleveland and you do it all over the place. That makes you, my friend, part of the the negativity and therefore part of the problem.
Yes, Minervah, there's the rub: if Cleveland does become a place that attracts the Portland/PNW types or the many other glamorous places we all know, the city will lose its local character, people are priced-out, and the locals become tech-bots or another form of ''suburban gone urban'' (provided it's trendy, cookie-cutter, safe, allegedly diverse-but not too much), also known as suburban hipsters living in a city they would never visit previously.
On the other hand, how does a city and metro grow today without this happening?
Location: Cleveland, OH USA / formerly Chicago for 20 years
4,069 posts, read 7,315,809 times
Reputation: 3062
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kamms
Chicago is another example of a city attracting educated residents to high paying jobs clustered in the downtown and north side areas. The rest of the city is in decline, the middle class is leaving, especially poor minorities. Now the Chicago metro is losing population. While some downplay the ''poor leaving'' as an issue, the larger problem for Chicago and Illinois is the burden of carrying the city and state is growing for these high-paid, educated residents. Chicago's real estate market appreciation is stagnant and it still has a huge amount of underwater mortgages. I believe Cleveland is seeing higher valuation appreciation than Chicago at this point.
As you point out, Cleveland has started its reinvention in places like downtown, Tremont etc. The momentum of these areas should continue; as it does, the areas attach to new ''hot'' areas etc. It's a nice start, but at least it's a start. I mean there has to be a ''start'' somewhere. The broader discussion of what continues to ail Cleveland needs to realistically be addressed and discussed. Touchy topics would need to be discussed though.
So while old Rust Belt cities like Chicago and Pittsburgh are oftentimes hailed as being these boom towns, while Cleveland and Detroit, for example, are still considered laggards, all have one thing in common: city and metro populations in decline.
I'll take Chicago's "hot areas" over Cleveland's any day. And, if you add up the population in the Chicago neighborhoods that are doing well, you get a figure that's larger than the entire city of Cleveland.
I'll take Chicago's "hot areas" over Cleveland's any day. And, if you add up the population in the Chicago neighborhoods that are doing well, you get a figure that's larger than the entire city of Cleveland.
You're missing Kamms' point. Perhaps I don't remember correctly, but didn't you say in the past that you could no longer afford to live in Chicago's "hot areas?"
Certainly, most Greater Clevelanders and others nationally wouldn't find the cost of housing and otherwise living in Chicago's "hot areas" appealing, especially with current and likely future rapidly rising tax burdens and service cuts given the massive fiscal problems in Chicago and Illinois, unless well compensated for the realities of working and living in Chicago.
Consider the impact of the new federal tax bill which caps the federal state and local tax deduction at $10,000, definitely changing the equation of living in Chicago and other high-tax cities.
Of course, Chicago residents also pay state and local income taxes, sales taxes, etc., so it's likely that many won't be able to deduct real property taxes for higher valued real estate.
The federal government's new wave of deficit spending, greatly as a result of the new tax bill, may force interest rates much higher throughout the nation, more greatly imperiling already financially distressed cities such as Chicago, already facing junk credit ratings.
Meanwhile, the City of Cleveland is trying to expand its police force by 25 percent....
BTW, I might (not really; I'm afraid of tsunamis) much prefer to live on the beach in Malibu.
Last edited by WRnative; 04-14-2018 at 06:13 PM..
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