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the vast majority of riders in the largest commuter rail services are well within the MSA not CSA
NYC, Chicago, Boston, Philadelphia all generate probably 90+% of their ridership within the MSA, some with 40-50% within city limits. I have to disagree here
What is the closest major city to the principal city in the examples you just named? If there is no major city within 30 mile's of the principal city, it's not a relevant observation. Notice how the CSA for the cities you just named isn't much bigger than the MSA? Why do you think that is? Probably because there is nowhere else for people to work within 100+ miles except the main city. That's why all the counties are CONSIDERED MSA while a county like Howard county which is 20 minutes from DC is apart of Baltimore's MSA. How's that Mercer situation working out for Philly by the way? This is why I said political boundaries don't really matter here. We have two major cities in our region and no other city has that with a commuter rail system you just named.
So, I'll ask you, what point are you trying to make since your colleague never answered the question. What point are you trying to make?
again the VAST VAST VAST majority of riders on commuter rail in the US are from the MSA (not CSA) to the core - this is not even close to debatable
Did someone say it was? Did I even state in the bolded sentence you just made that CSA ridership was greater than MSA ridership? No, I was showing why commuter rail was created. It was created to go long distances versus subway which was created to go short distances. MSA versus CSA doesn't matter, counties can be added to MSA that were CSA or subtracted, doesn't change the rail network or ridership.
What point are you two trying to make? What exactly is up for debate here? I really don't even know what point you guys are trying to make here? What is the punch line here?
Did someone say it was? Did I even state in the bolded sentence you just made that CSA ridership was greater than MSA ridership? No, I was showing why commuter rail was created. It was created to go long distances versus subway which was created to go short distances. MSA versus CSA doesn't matter, counties can be added to MSA that were CSA or subtracted, doesn't change the rail network or ridership.
What point are you two trying to make? What exactly is up for debate here? I really don't even know what point you guys are trying to make here? What is the punch line here?
disagree - it depends on the construct systems like BART or METRO are more hybrid and cover areas closer in and further out. Older legacy subway systems like NYC, Boston, Philly, Chciago dont run as far out and commuter rail covers much of the area that many stations cover for the newer type systems. Look at the maps for the older systems they are more integrated and less far flowing
in the DC area there is a commuter rail connection but on the whole would not say this is the norm - especially in terms of ridership in the US - most is actually mostly closer in - no further than stations on the METRO typically for the VAST majority of riders
and my point is most commuter rail ridership in these places is close in not far flung
What is the closest major city to the principal city in the examples you just named? If there is no major city within 30 mile's of the principal city, it's not a relevant observation. Notice how the CSA for the cities you just named isn't much bigger than the MSA? Why do you think that is? Probably because there is nowhere else for people to work within 100+ miles except the main city. That's why all the counties are CONSIDERED MSA while a county like Howard county which is 20 minutes from DC is apart of Baltimore's MSA. How's that Mercer situation working out for Philly by the way? This is why I said political boundaries don't really matter here. We have two major cities in our region and no other city has that with a commuter rail system you just named.
So, I'll ask you, what point are you trying to make since your colleague never answered the question. What point are you trying to make?
the point is the vast majority of current US commuter rail ridership serves closer in people not more far flung as you asert is the reason for commuter rail - the numbers suggest the opposite in that the majority of US ridership is closer in on these systems and the numbers back this up not far flung commuters
I agree. Keep in mind that, before 1991, the only modern rail transit the LA metro area had (not counting those Big Red interurban cars from yesteryear), was a few Amtrak commuter runs into Union Station from a few edge cities like San Bernardino and, at an extreme, San Diego... LA was the poster-child city for sprawl and all that was wrong in urban growth.
But LA's come a long way in just 2 decades. There's a light/heavy rail rapid transit system which, in 5 years or so, will reach over 100 miles (it's at about 80 now), connected to 300 or so mile commuter rail network, along with some major BRT routes... I was very impressed using the rail network to travel to the Rose Bowl last New Year's day (and we used the system extensively prior to game day itself, including riding Metrolink to-from San Fernando to visit friends). Aside from ubiquitous palm trees + lush garden and the distinct, and impressive Moorish architecture, Union Station at rush hour felt like Grand Central, 30th Street or D.C. Union station -- electric with throngs of transferring passengers between Metrolink, the Gold Line (LRT) and the Red & Purple Lines (HRT)... and even Amtrak. In other words, LA felt just like Chicago or a typical Eastern City.
Commuter rail has been growing steadily every year and, likewise, service has been expanding... And if California can shutout conservatives threatening to scuttle the massive/impressive HSR system from LA to San Fran, Metrolink's numbers will go through the roof... give it time.
Can't really speak to those three, but I have extensive experience with Boston's South Station and I find that Union Station these days is equally busy at all times of the day.
the vast majority of riders in the largest commuter rail services are well within the MSA not CSA
NYC, Chicago, Boston, Philadelphia all generate probably 90+% of their ridership within the MSA, some with 40-50% within city limits. I have to disagree here
And those cities don't have a major city right next to it. Dumb point/argument.
disagree - it depends on the construct systems like BART or METRO are more hybrid and cover areas closer in and further out. Older legacy subway systems like NYC, Boston, Philly, Chciago dont run as far out and commuter rail covers much of the area that many stations cover for the newer type systems. Look at the maps for the older systems they are more integrated and less far flowing
in the DC area there is a commuter rail connection but on the whole would not say this is the norm - especially in terms of ridership in the US - most is actually mostly closer in - no further than stations on the METRO typically for the VAST majority of riders
and my point is most commuter rail ridership in these places is close in not far flung
Couple things....
How far is DC's ridership from the city in miles? Unless you know that, what analysis are you even making?
Also, what does all this have to do with what we were talking about? What is the disagreement exactly? I guess better yet, what was the question?
the point is the vast majority of current US commuter rail ridership serves closer in people not more far flung as you asert is the reason for commuter rail - the numbers suggest the opposite in that the majority of US ridership is closer in on these systems and the numbers back this up not far flung commuters
When did I say ridership was heavier farther out? I said it was made to reach areas that are far from the city. Doesn't mean ridership is heaviest farther from the city.
In terms of ridership, SEPTA's regional rail and MBTA's commuter rail are an interesting comparison given how close the two are in number. I know MBTA's commuter rail has a lot of pretty low-hanging fruit in terms of feasible proposals that could radically improve service like the North-South commuter rail link--is there similar for SEPTA? I know SEPTA already made its through running tunnel though the benefits weren't as great since the two train systems oddly criss-cross all over the place.
In terms of ridership, SEPTA's regional rail and MBTA's commuter rail are an interesting comparison given how close the two are in number. I know MBTA's commuter rail has a lot of pretty low-hanging fruit in terms of feasible proposals that could radically improve service like the North-South commuter rail link--is there similar for SEPTA? I know SEPTA already made its through running tunnel though the benefits weren't as great since the two train systems oddly criss-cross all over the place.
SEPTA also has some relatively easily implementable service expansion/improvements (or, more appropriately, re-establishment of service) to outer-suburban hubs like West Chester, Phoenixville/Pottstown, and Quakertown, which would very much enhance coverage in underserved parts of the metro. The infrastructure still exists for all of these routes, and all of these projects have are in ongoing consideration by local officials, but of course several years of study and planning will likely ensue before they reach a more imminent phase. Light rail extension from Norristown to the King of Prussia area seems to be the most prioritized suburban expansion project at the moment, but that, too, will take several years of planning and identifying funding.
Aside from system expansion, for both MBTA and SEPTA, I think just building more parking at heavily congested stations (of which there are many) and increasing train frequency would be even simpler, common-sense solutions to boosting service. Introducing bi-level cars is also something that is going to increase capacity for SEPTA.
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