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The study for Center City is pretty detailed. We know there are 10 counting locations, we know how they are counting (camera technology), we know that that particular report was for May 2019 (pre-pandemic), we know the time window (24 hours) and we know they are averaging weekday volume and weekend volume for the month separately. Usually, pedestrian count reports are hard to compare because we don't have much that much information, but the CC and NYC reports are about as good as it gets. A lot of cities simply have someone standing on a corner counting. And often they'll just take counts on a few days of the year, not define the count window, etc.
The CC is reporting is capturing a 24-hour window. And in that 24-hour window, there are lower pedestrian counts for all CC counting locations combined than there are for a one block stretch of East Fordham Road during a 5-hour window. There's nothing confusing about it.
You seem to be confused on this point. I didn't say their methodology was confusing--I said they were different. They have different methodologies, different time of year, different windows in time, and a sampling for a single day. Center City and a block of Fordham Road are not the same type of thing. I'm not sure what you find so confusing about this.
You seem to be confused on this point. I didn't say their methodology was confusing--I said they were different. They have different methodologies, different time of year, different windows in time, and a sampling for a single day. Center City and a block of Fordham Road are not the same type of thing. I'm not sure what you find so confusing about this.
I'm not confused. I'm saying that the methodology is spelled out so clearly that there should be no question about which has higher counts.
I mean, duh, the methodologies are different. I already told you what they were. We have weekday counts for 10 locations in Center City in May 2019 (pre-pandemic, peak month for pedestrian counts) over a 24-hour time period. They count all day long. On the other hand, we have weekday counts for one intersection in the Bronx averaged out over 10 years over a 5-hour counting period. So yes, the methodologies are different. Yes, the counts for the BX should be lower since the counting window is 19 hours shorter. We are also looking at year-long averages for Fordham Road instead of cherrypicking the most beautiful month of the year in the Mid-Atlantic.
You're saying "they are too different for meaningful comparison" while I'm saying the counts for Fordham Road are so much higher during a significantly shorter counting window that you have to be playing intentionally dumb to not reach a conclusion about which has the higher counts. It would be like asking who has more rings between Jordan (6) and Lebron (4) and saying that we can't really count because Lebron played 6 more seasons.
Another way to look at it: Fordham Road has 42% of the average pedestrian volume of one of Manhattan's busiest intersections. So if you think the busiest street in Center City has about 43% of what you see here, then you might be right that it has more pedestrian volume than Fordham.
I'm not confused. I'm saying that the methodology is spelled out so clearly that there should be no question about which has higher counts.
I mean, duh, the methodologies are different. I already told you what they were. We have weekday counts for 10 locations in Center City in May 2019 (pre-pandemic, peak month for pedestrian counts) over a 24-hour time period. They count all day long. On the other hand, we have weekday counts for one intersection in the Bronx averaged out over 10 years over a 5-hour counting period. So yes, the methodologies are different. Yes, the counts for the BX should be lower since the counting window is 19 hours shorter. We are also looking at year-long averages for Fordham Road instead of cherrypicking the most beautiful month of the year in the Mid-Atlantic.
You're saying "they are too different for meaningful comparison" while I'm saying the counts for Fordham Road are so much higher during a significantly shorter counting window that you have to be playing intentionally dumb to not reach a conclusion about which has the higher counts. It would be like asking who has more rings between Jordan (6) and Lebron (4) and saying that we can't really count because Lebron played 6 more seasons.
I literally said why they don't make sense to compare. These are two different kinds of things in the first place. One is a block on a street while what I mentioned was a neighborhood or a collection of neighborhoods. You're talking about a rather long block of a long and wide road versus a collection of neighborhoods with a bunch of small streets everywhere. I was referring to the neighborhoods and not to any one specific street crossing--you're the one making that claim and reference. Are you confused on this part? Even if we got over that confusion, the way they register these count are not described and that would be part of the methodology that's missing. Then there's the Philadelphia one doing an average over the course of May while the the other one has three select times in March when they did it. There seems to be confusion on your part on multiple levels and I'm not sure that you understand though I like the typographical effort. What did you think I was claiming originally that you thought you were addressing?
Cool sports analogy. Presumably those people you mentioned play in a sport with what are essentially the same rule sets and same time. What question did you think was being asked? Great, whatever it was, that's probably not how these two counts relate to what I said. How did you think this going to be some kind of clarity rather than even more confusion?
Last edited by OyCrumbler; 05-08-2024 at 02:46 PM..
Then there's the Philadelphia one doing an average over the course of May while the the other one has three select times in March when they did it. There seems to be confusion on your part on multiple levels and I'm not sure that you understand though I like the typographical effort. What did you think I was claiming originally that you thought you were addressing?
March 17, 2021 is the date of the report as indicated in the footer. That's not when the counting occurred.
New York is safer than Philadelphia — that's a fact.
But I think lots of people, including many here, exaggerate the degree to which that affects QOL here. I'll grant that stories like the one about the one-year-old stabbed by a mentally ill person near Rittenhouse Square give one pause, but most of us go about our business from day to day undisturbed by crime.
And I'm saying this as one who was disturbed: I came close to being collateral damage when a bunch of teens who had just walked past me in the other direction on Chelten Avenue in Germantown started shooting about 30 seconds later two years ago.
Yet lots of people like living in Germantown. It's the city's most populous outlying neighborhood. A stat about it that I like to throw out is: I know of no other Philadelphia neighborhood where the median household is in the upper $30ks and 6% of the households earn more than $105k per year. (I just looked up some data on PolicyMap, and there's a block group in Germantown's northwest quadrant with an MHI of $167k next to another where it's $90k.)
Indeed - but that is really in the 2000's as NYC had a larger drop in crime than other major cities. But I was sticking to the parameters the original poster laid out - so I was directly comparing The Bronx (which is why they noted reputations). I think part of the reason he chose it was because The Bronx is highest violent crime rate of the 5 boroughs. But if one compares out of NYC - The Bronx has a lower violent crime rate than Philly - or other cities that were high on the "super cool" or growing cities list like Atlanta or DC or Houston or Miami.
I honestly haven't been in Philly in a while. My main complaint with Philly was my main complaint with NYC. Both are the two dirtiest major cities I've seen. Granted - most of my Philly experience centered around the Temple U area - but also the Spring garden area (love Fairmount Park). I couldn't say what it was like in the outer areas of Philly so I have to rely on numbers. I have passed through Germantown - but I didn't spend much time there. So I will have to take your word. But yeah neighborhoods like that are where more people will actually live in any city. I will give an anecdote to the comparison on this thread QOL is a good note. I know an Italian lady from the East Bronx (Pelham Bay/Country Club). Philly is her second favorite American city - after NY - lol (I'd put it 3rd for me). She has family and friends in South Philly and visits regularly. As much as she likes it - she doesn't want to leave the East Bronx and move to Philly - because her QOL is fine where she is. But one thing - she says Arthur Ave is better than Philly's Italian market - LOL. She could be biased - but I'm not Italian so I go with what she says - LOL.
One thing I will say why Brooklyn and Philly are more direct comparisons is architecture. I'm a sucker for those old style townhomes. So when it comes to residential neighborhood architecture I think those two are tops - with DC as an honorable mention. Ironically though when talking of architecture... Those far north reaches of Philly I have passed through - can pass for parts of the Northeast Bronx (Laconia - Edenwald - Eastchester) or the Southeast Bronx (Soundview - Castle Hill)... Those would be analogous to areas of southern Brooklyn like Canarsie or Flatlands - but even parts of East Flatbush). I mean it wouldn't be surprising if the NY neighborhoods used similar developers and architects - but it was uncanny to me how similar some outer areas of Philly look.
I'd be curious about a comparison of residential and day time populations of the two when paring Philadelphia down to 42 square mile equivalent centered on the urban core. Center City and the very closely adjacent parts does feel like it has more street vibrancy overall than I think any part of the Bronx though that's not a very large area. Philadelphia will have lower residential population, but I'd be curious as to how much lower, and I'm also wondering if daytime population ends up being much higher as a regional center whereas there's a likely a good chunk of people living in the Bronx that leave the borough for work.
In my own personal circle, I've seen a few non-Philly natives move to Philadelphia specifically for something akin to the New York experience for Philadelphia prices, though I think it's usually couched more in that you can get a lot of what New York offers in terms of urban living for much cheaper prices as well as things they end up finding endearing about Philadelphia itself.
The first bolded passage was captured in that "80 percent of New York at 20 percent of the cost" quip. And the guy who relayed it appears to have no family in the Philadelphia area but found that he could spread his creative/artistic wings here in a way he couldn't in New York.
The second bolded passage seems to describe Sylva Senat's reaction to the place: he was pleasantly surprised to learn that a city could be both smaller than New York and still great.
In the early 1900's they would never think the area would look the way it did in 1970. So who knows.... But up until the pandemic Lehman Center of the Performing Arts (obviously far from 149th street) would still have orchestra and ballet performances from Europe. I know Jazz at Lincoln Center was at Lehman a few months ago. Now though I notice it more Latino themes perform there (obviously as The Bronx is now majority Latino) - but still.. But I get your point - without bourgeois "amenities" - a place doesn't get "noticed" in a positive way
I'd be curious about a comparison of residential and day time populations of the two when paring Philadelphia down to 42 square mile equivalent centered on the urban core. Center City and the very closely adjacent parts does feel like it has more street vibrancy overall than I think any part of the Bronx though that's not a very large area. Philadelphia will have lower residential population, but I'd be curious as to how much lower, and I'm also wondering if daytime population ends up being much higher as a regional center whereas there's a likely a good chunk of people living in the Bronx that leave the borough for work.
In my own personal circle, I've seen a few non-Philly natives move to Philadelphia specifically for something akin to the New York experience for Philadelphia prices, though I think it's usually couched more in that you can get a lot of what New York offers in terms of urban living for much cheaper prices as well as things they end up finding endearing about Philadelphia itself.
Since the 2000's most of the job growth in NYC has been outside of Manhattan. The majority of people that live in a borough work in that borough vs commuting to Manhattan according to NYC
Since the 2000's most of the job growth in NYC has been outside of Manhattan. The majority of people that live in a borough work in that borough vs commuting to Manhattan according to NYC
Yea, that's true and simultaneously, that study finds the majority of Bronx workers work outside of the Bronx at 59% of Bronx workers going outside of the district with a net deficit when adding in people coming from other places to work in the Bronx of about 191K. My guess is that the densest, most central 42 square miles of Philadelphia probably gets a sizable net increase.
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