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You asked what I would consider a difference of kind as opposed to degree. Really rich places do tend to be different in kind from others — consider Beverly Hills, for instance, or much of the northern part (above the railroad) of the Main Line here. (Among my Phillymag colleagues, I'm known for using "Gladwyne"* as a shorthand term for "over-the-top, more-money-than-taste excess").
Merely affluent places aren't quite that different from the places below them.
And since Manhattan is the only large urban place in the country with incomes even in San Francisco's neighborhood, then yes, it belongs with it rather than with, say, Chicago ($75,379 in 2019) or Boston ($79,018 in that same year).
*Gladwyne, the only Main Line community without a station on the rail line that gave the area its name, has the highest median household income of any community in the Greater Philadelphia region (MHI for its ZIP code, 19035: $250,001). Now, having provided that figure, you might say that neither Manhattan nor San Francisco are in its league, but remember, I said urban, which Gladwyne definitely is not — it's very-low-density suburban.
Yeah...because we were talking about density, walkability, pedestrian traffic and urban design. You're now changing the subject to wealth, presumably because you didn't have a good answer as to why Manhattan is different in kind as opposed to being different in degree. Even with regard to wealth, you could say that Manhattan is really only different in degree as opposed to being different in kind.
One huge Brooklyn difference between Philly and Brooklyn that can't be ignored is the composition of their respective populations (certainly can't be ignored in Philly since Blacks are a plurality). The overwhelming majority of Black people in Philly have their roots in Virginia and the Carolinas. The majority of Black people in Brooklyn have their roots in the West Indies and Africa.
So when I think "Brooklyn vibes," to me personally, I think of the sounds of Lord Kitchener, Beres and Sanchez and the smell of roti in the air. When I think of Philly vibes, I think of playing dominoes with uncles while listening to Frankie Beverly or Jill Scott and eating fried whiting.
Actually, I didn't say that. If I did, you should quote me.
Okay. Here's your original question to me:
Quote:
And by "vibes," you mean upper middle class, college-educated people walking to yoga and brunch?
I see nothing there about non-yuppie stuff.
Quote:
Okay? DC doesn't have that. But Baltimore does. And Pittsburgh. And Chicago does. So maybe Philly has Chicago vibes???
Actually, the general outcome of the "Philly vs. Chicago" threads has been to suggest that the answer to that last question is Yes.
But I'd still say that Brooklyn is closer to both of them than it is to the other two cities you mentioned, though Philly and Baltimore also have several characteristics in common (lots of rowhouses, high poverty, a largely Southern Black population — but in Baltimore's case, a lot of them are descendants of slaves on Maryland plantations, and there wasn't much of a Great Migration effect there, because Maryland, like Missouri, had Jim Crow laws).
And Pittsburgh's mighty white. Edited to add: And Philadephia's more racially and ethnically diverse than nearly 2/3 Black Baltimore.
Last edited by MarketStEl; 06-21-2022 at 09:25 AM..
What does "Brooklyn vibes" mean? He hasn't explained that yet. And I don't understand why Philly would give off "Brooklyn vibes" but not "Bronx vibes" considering that all three share some similarities (i.e., White ethnic influence, rich history, etc.). The only difference I can see is that Brooklyn has trendy areas while the Bronx does not for the most part.
I shouldn't have to spell out the obvious here. It is obvious that the Bronx, Brooklyn and Philadelphia have a working-class white ethnic history. But in the question I'm posing, I'm asking whether the difference maker here is the presence of yuppies.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MarketStEl
And Pittsburgh's mighty white.
So what? You said "a working-class white ethnic ethos with a yuppie overlay." If that's the standard, then yeah, you could say Philly has "Pittsburgh vibes" too.
Fewer healthy commercial corridors, yes, but proportionally speaking, there probably are about as many here as in NYC (North 22d Street, 52d Street, most of the length of Germantown Avenue, Frankford and Kensington avenues, Castor Avenue, Cottman Avenue between Roosevelt Boulevard and Castor Avenue, North Fifth Street, Torresdale Avenue in Tacony, 60th Street, Ridge Avenue, Oregon Avenue, Washington Avenue, and the more suburban big-box strips like South Columbus Boulevard, Aramingo Avenue, and Grant Avenue in the Far Northeast, and I've still left several off).
What do you mean proportionally speaking? Proportionally speaking, Walla Walla, Washington has the same amount of commercial corridors as NYC as well... that is a weird metric.
If you want to say that Philly and Brooklyn have the same amount of commercial corridor walkable areas - absolutely no shot that is true.
What do you mean proportionally speaking? Proportionally speaking, Walla Walla, Washington has the same amount of commercial corridors as NYC as well... that is a weird metric.
If you want to say that Philly and Brooklyn has the same amount of commercial corridor walkable areas - absolutely no shot that is true.
"Proportionally speaking," in this case, means "number of commercial corridors relative to their respective populations."
There are almost a million more Brooklynites than Philadelphians.
And if Walla Walla has x commercial corridors and a population of y, and New York has 100x commercial corridors and a population of 100y, then the proportional argument isn't a weird metric.
I shouldn't have to spell out the obvious here. It is obvious that the Bronx, Brooklyn and Philadelphia have a working-class white ethnic history. But in the question I'm posing, I'm asking whether the difference maker here is the presence of yuppies.
So what? You said "a working-class white ethnic ethos with a yuppie overlay." If that's the standard, then yeah, you could say Philly has "Pittsburgh vibes" too.
I answered the question I quoted, not your followup. See post 46. The first word of that question was "Nope" because in the post I was responding to, you hadn't put in the white-ethnic stuff you did in your response to Duderino.
As for Pittsburgh: Yeah, but the bigger non-white presence in (majority-minority) Philadephia does make its "vibes" different from those of Pittsburgh. Similarly, Chicago's more like Philly than like Pittsburgh for that reason, even though I'd say its white-ethnic character is stronger than Philly's by a slight margin.
(White percentages for each city: Pittsburgh, 66.4; Chicago: 47.7 (a plurality); Baltimore, 29.7; Philadelphia, 44.8 (also a plurality, and the plurality has fluctuated between Blacks and whites over the last two decades or so). Which of those is Philadelphia closest to? BTW, the percentage for Brooklyn is 49.8, just shy of a majority.)
Brooklyn suffers by comparison to Philadelphia simply because it doesn't have certain big-city acoutrements like major-league sports teams (those are found in Queens, Manhattan and New Jersey — didn't the Nets move across the Hudson?) and major media outlets (Manhattan has the lock on those [Booklyn Eagle, RIP — but again, isn't there an effort to bring that paper back from the dead?])
??? The Nets play in Barclays Center in Brooklyn, not in New Jersey.
As far as news, Vice News headquarters are in Brooklyn.
As for Pittsburgh: Yeah, but the bigger non-white presence in (majority-minority) Philadephia does make its "vibes" different from those of Pittsburgh. Similarly, Chicago's more like Philly than like Pittsburgh for that reason, even though I'd say its white-ethnic character is stronger than Philly's by a slight margin.
So in this case, if we're talking about a demographic mirror of the borough of Brooklyn, would you then say that Boston has more of a "Brooklyn vibe" than Philly? More West Indians, more Dominicans, etc. Culturally, I can't think of a place that would be more similar.
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