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Cleveland's UA should actually be 1.9mil+ For some reason the OMB has decided that the eastern 1/3rd of it's UA is actually a totally separate UA when there's no actual break in it. That doesn't even count the southern parts that are separated.
The OMB even further fragmented the Urban Areas in Northeast Ohio by recently splitting Medina into its own UA and bumping the Lorain-Elyria UA (I think you meant the western 1/3 from your post) up to 202,000 from 176,000 ... that makes little sense since the growth in Lorain County has been mainly in Avon Lake, Avon and North Ridgeville which are definitively Cleveland suburbs (all three have commuting rates above 50 percent into Cuyahoga County).
So, now in Northeast Ohio you have the following Urban Areas (that are all connected, but viewed as separate urban entities):
1. Cleveland
2. Lorain-Elyria
3. Medina
4. Akron (separate MSA)
5. Canton (separate MSA)
*At one point, Mentor-Painesville (Lake County) had its own UA as well, though it has been since merged with Cleveland.
Combined, as has been mentioned, those five areas (three of which are part of Cleveland's MSA) would be at 3.1 million and still fits in a land area smaller than the land area for every other 2-million plus MSA in the Midwest. You can add in the Youngstown-Warren MSA/UA (though that area definitely has its own urban development patterns separate than the others), and even the rest of Northeast Ohio at its broadest definition (add Erie, Huron, Wayne, Ashtabula counties) and the land area of Northeast Ohio (4.1 million) would still be smaller than the land area of the St. Louis or Minneapolis MSA.
Cleveland has the distinction of being the major destination/hub city in a broader Northeast Ohio region of 4 million, but since there are so many divisions (UA/MSA) here, that on paper, it is seen as much smaller than what it really is.
It's semantics. If you go strictly by MSA or UA in a vacuum, then Cleveland is Tier III ... along with the likes of St. Louis, Cincinnati, Columbus, Indy, KC, Milwaukee.
If you go by significance in terms of a broader region, then I would argue it is either at the bottom of Tier II ... along with Detroit and Minneapolis; or at the very top of Tier III, with St. Louis being next.
With that, while Cleveland is the hub of a 4-million region, I'm not arguing that it's a 4 million person city/MSA. It's like beating a dead horse, but at this point, Cleveland-Akron even if not on paper, should realistically be treated a singular MSA. Just in terms of amentities, Akron is probably the least served "metro" of 700,000 or above in the country because most of the regional draws will come to Cleveland, then skip over Akron completely. If they want a second NE Ohio location, they will go to the 400K Canton metro instead to seal off the southern portion.
This is just one example, but in September, we wanted to do a birthday party for our five-year old grandson at a trampoline park and then Dave and Busters (that part was a mix between for the kids and for the adults, lol). For Dave and Busters, you either have to go Cleveland (Westlake) or Canton (Belden Village). Dave and Busters passed over the Akron market for Canton. That's just one example, but overall Akron's biggest shopping/retail/dining area (Montrose) can't come close to matching the smaller Canton's Belden Village area.
For the most part, retailers operate as the northern (more populated) portion of the "Akron" MSA being lumped in with Cleveland; then they figure they can catch the southern portion of Akron (250K or so) along with the 400K in Canton.
With that, while Cleveland is the hub of a 4-million region, I'm not arguing that it's a 4 million person city/MSA. It's like beating a dead horse, but at this point, Cleveland-Akron even if not on paper, should realistically be treated a singular MSA. Just in terms of amentities, Akron is probably the least served "metro" of 700,000 or above in the country because most of the regional draws will come to Cleveland, then skip over Akron completely. If they want a second NE Ohio location, they will go to the 400K Canton metro instead to seal off the southern portion.
This is just one example, but in September, we wanted to do a birthday party for our five-year old grandson at a trampoline park and then Dave and Busters (that part was a mix between for the kids and for the adults, lol). For Dave and Busters, you either have to go Cleveland (Westlake) or Canton (Belden Village). Dave and Busters passed over the Akron market for Canton. That's just one example, but overall Akron's biggest shopping/retail/dining area (Montrose) can't come close to matching the smaller Canton's Belden Village area.
For the most part, retailers operate as the northern (more populated) portion of the "Akron" MSA being lumped in with Cleveland; then they figure they can catch the southern portion of Akron (250K or so) along with the 400K in Canton.
I must respectfully disagree with this take. Off the top of my head there's not much beyond Dave & Buster's that I would have to go to Canton for retail wise. Yet I know plenty of Stark county friends who have to come to the Akron area to go to the Apple Store, Costco, Whole Foods etc. Also I don't believe there is a large difference between Belden and Montrose...unless you are not counting the all the retail that stretches from Montrose to Highland Square on route 18.
I must respectfully disagree with this take. Off the top of my head there's not much beyond Dave & Buster's that I would have to go to Canton for retail wise. Yet I know plenty of Stark county friends who have to come to the Akron area to go to the Apple Store, Costco, Whole Foods etc. Also I don't believe there is a large difference between Belden and Montrose...unless you are not counting the all the retail that stretches from Montrose to Highland Square on route 18.
Fair enough, I was referring to Montrose as being from I-77 to the Summit Mall area. I never lump Wallhaven/Highland Square into that, which I always think of as true neighborhood corridors separate from Montrose the larger Montrose commercial strip. And yes, Canton has no match for them on a neighborhood level.
Lol, we probably live within 5 or so miles of each other (in different MSAs), so I'm very familiar with Montrose and most of our shopping trips are there since it's the closest. But you're right, Akron has a couple attractions that would be considered more mid to higher tier (Apple and Whole Foods as examples) that Belden Village doesn't, but overall I'd still personally rank Belden Village higher just because it's such a mammoth area and basically if "Canton" has something, it's going to be in Belden Village; where Akron does split some things between Montrose and Chapel Hills/Falls/Stow area. ... or like Costco, which I almost completely forgot about since the "Akron" one is in Northfield/Macedonia, which I've always though of as being among the Cleveland exurbs located in Summit/Portage counties.
I guess my larger overall point is really that Cleveland-Akron-Canton (and Lorain and Medina) are all part of one larger connected region. Even Montrose (Akron) vs. Belden Village (Canton) and throw in SouthPark (Cleveland), is all a local debate. I can get to all three within a half hour and never think of it as going to "Cleveland" or going to "Akron" or going to "Canton".
You have "KC" in your handle here. Did you live there, and what's your assessment of it?
I did live there for about almost 20 years, and I loved it. Did not want to move away at all, but, that's the breaks. My assessment it that it's a goldilocks city, and (except for their apparently endemic violent crime) all those midwestern cities are real gems, but they are also more or less all interchangeable, in terms of living there. "I wouldn't want to visit" is the kind of thing a person might say that I would think, this person is probably a little simple. I don't know, I've never been one of those shame-faced, aw-shucks midwesterners. I split time now between Newport, KY and Northern Minnesota. For a little while before coming back east to Cincy we lived in St Louis and loved it, too, but it was very brief. I didn't really want to leave there, either.
Fair enough, I was referring to Montrose as being from I-77 to the Summit Mall area. I never lump Wallhaven/Highland Square into that, which I always think of as true neighborhood corridors separate from Montrose the larger Montrose commercial strip. And yes, Canton has no match for them on a neighborhood level.
Lol, we probably live within 5 or so miles of each other (in different MSAs), so I'm very familiar with Montrose and most of our shopping trips are there since it's the closest. But you're right, Akron has a couple attractions that would be considered more mid to higher tier (Apple and Whole Foods as examples) that Belden Village doesn't, but overall I'd still personally rank Belden Village higher just because it's such a mammoth area and basically if "Canton" has something, it's going to be in Belden Village; where Akron does split some things between Montrose and Chapel Hills/Falls/Stow area. ... or like Costco, which I almost completely forgot about since the "Akron" one is in Northfield/Macedonia, which I've always though of as being among the Cleveland exurbs located in Summit/Portage counties.
I guess my larger overall point is really that Cleveland-Akron-Canton (and Lorain and Medina) are all part of one larger connected region. Even Montrose (Akron) vs. Belden Village (Canton) and throw in SouthPark (Cleveland), is all a local debate. I can get to all three within a half hour and never think of it as going to "Cleveland" or going to "Akron" or going to "Canton".
All good points and we really would be splitting hairs to debate it any further, as you correctly pointed out you can get to all of these places in no time.
The smaller the metro, the more important it is to distinguish between tiers and size. Less so, as metro areas become larger. It’s pretty straight forward.
I did live there for about almost 20 years, and I loved it. Did not want to move away at all, but, that's the breaks. My assessment it that it's a goldilocks city, and (except for their apparently endemic violent crime) all those midwestern cities are real gems, but they are also more or less all interchangeable, in terms of living there. "I wouldn't want to visit" is the kind of thing a person might say that I would think, this person is probably a little simple. I don't know, I've never been one of those shame-faced, aw-shucks midwesterners. I split time now between Newport, KY and Northern Minnesota. For a little while before coming back east to Cincy we lived in St Louis and loved it, too, but it was very brief. I didn't really want to leave there, either.
Of course, I'm not living there now, but many Kansas Citians will never live there again yet still love it to death anyway. Midwestern cities aren't glamorous or exciting, but they're very pleasant places to live.
Which brings me to the joke I heard about KC in my college years:
"it's a nice place to live, but I wouldn't want to visit there."
Of course, I'm not living there now, but many Kansas Citians will never live there again yet still love it to death anyway. Midwestern cities aren't glamorous or exciting, but they're very pleasant places to live.
Which brings me to the joke I heard about KC in my college years:
"it's a nice place to live, but I wouldn't want to visit there."
I think that's changed in the years since.
I'm from KC region, but wouldn't want to live there again because I absolutely despise driving on interstate highways in larger cities as a necessity, and would be forced to do that in many scenarios there because everything is absurdly spread out. I also don't care for the excessive heat and humidity. One of the worst heat index readings I've ever experienced anywhere in the US was in Lawrence, KS with an air temperature of 106F and a dewpoint of 80F. That created a heat index reading in excess of 120F. Never again.
I would have to say that St. Paul belongs in Tier III. By itself, it is a larger city than St. Louis, Cincinnati or Pittsburgh with its own distinct core, its own huge suburbs and large Fortune 500 corporate presence that is separate from Minneapolis.
St. Paul tends to get overlooked because of its proximity to Minneapolis, but it is a major city unto itself that compares to all the other Tier III cities on the list.
Yes they are the own “thing” but in the context of this thread they should be treated as “one”.
I was addressing this because on the first page, Minneapolis is listed as Tier II and St. Paul is listed as Tier IV. They are separated here on this list.
While Minneapolis definitely belongs in Tier II, St. Paul belongs in Tier III in terms of population, importance and other factors, but it is often overlooked because of its proximity to Minneapolis.
I have to disagree. St. Paul is nowhere listed in the list of Alpha, Gamma, etc., cities. Without the MSA of the two cities together, St. Paul doesn't stand alone, as a Tier III city. Population, alone, doesn't get you there.
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