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Geographically and the way it's split up. The closest comparison I would think of is Tampa Bay. The Tampa Bay Area and Hampton roads are very similar, except that Tampa Bay has twice as many people in the metro and the cities themselves are about twice as big. and is tropical. But they are very similar. The Bay keeps cities in the bay isolated from each other and small. The water defines city boundarys in many cases, you have to take bridges over water to get to different cities in the metro. St. Petersburg FL for instance has a density of 4K per square mile but half the city limits is ocean. If you take away the water the density reaches 8K per square mile, very dense, but it is stuck at a population for 300K and has been for decades because there is simply no where to build. It is on a peninsula, there is no land left. Professional sports teams make there home there but it is overshadowed by it's big brother across te bay which really ain't too much bigger and is much more spread out, Tampa.
Norfolk is like that. Simple geography makes it national underrated but that same geography is unique and beautiful. Y'all can have the notoriety. I'll take the breath taking ocean views and water defining each independent community over your large land mass that all blends together any day. Take the Hampton roads area and double the population of the cities in it and you have Tampa Bay but without palm trees.
I really love the Hampton Roads metro. It's my 2nd favorite metro in America after guess where? Tampa Bay!
Geographically and the way it's split up. The closest comparison I would think of is Tampa Bay. The Tampa Bay Area and Hampton roads are very similar, except that Tampa Bay has twice as many people in the metro and the cities themselves are about twice as big. and is tropical. But they are very similar. The Bay keeps cities in the bay isolated from each other and small. The water defines city boundarys in many cases, you have to take bridges over water to get to different cities in the metro. St. Petersburg FL for instance has a density of 4K per square mile but half the city limits is ocean. If you take away the water the density reaches 8K per square mile, very dense, but it is stuck at a population for 300K and has been for decades because there is simply no where to build. It is on a peninsula, there is no land left. Professional sports teams make there home there but it is overshadowed by it's big brother across te bay which really ain't too much bigger and is much more spread out, Tampa.
Norfolk is like that. Simple geography makes it national underrated but that same geography is unique and beautiful. Y'all can have the notoriety. I'll take the breath taking ocean views and water defining each independent community over your large land mass that all blends together any day. Take the Hampton roads area and double the population of the cities in it and you have Tampa Bay but without palm trees.
I really love the Hampton Roads metro. It's my 2nd favorite metro in America after guess where? Tampa Bay!
Spent a full day in Norfolk today, just getting back home now. Did some standard shopping at MacArthur, had an outstanding time at the Chrysler, did an extensive driving tour for fun and spent the afternoon from about 1-4 on a foot patrol through Downtown...
I had a wonderful time, and though I've been to Norfolk many times, I saw more pedestrian traffic downtown than I've ever saw before. I'm thinking MEAC traffic contributed somewhat; MEAC doesn't have the draw of CIAA but there was sufficient representation of member schools moving around downtown today...
What hurts Norfolk in relation to its peer cities is similar to New Orleans--Norfolk is economically challenged. That is a characteristic that holds a great deal of weight, because otherwise, Norfolk is beautiful, has a compelling allure of urban flair, and has comparable amenities to similarly-sized cities...
I think a other similarity it probably shares with Tampa is that both are underperforming metros for their weight class. Tampa anchors a 3 million person metro but has the general quality metros ~25% smaller in the 2.2-2.3 million range. Norfolk anchors a metro north of 1.7 million but fits the sane profile as a city that truly feels around the 1.2-1.3 million range. I'm kinda polarized at that similarity, and would actually say Tampa is a peer city in that light. At any rate, I am impressed with the process in Downtown Norfolk. I also could see how the comparisons to Baltimore is apt...
Spent a full day in Norfolk today, just getting back home now. Did some standard shopping at MacArthur, had an outstanding time at the Chrysler, did an extensive driving tour for fun and spent the afternoon from about 1-4 on a foot patrol through Downtown...
I had a wonderful time, and though I've been to Norfolk many times, I saw more pedestrian traffic downtown than I've ever saw before. I'm thinking MEAC traffic contributed somewhat; MEAC doesn't have the draw of CIAA but there was sufficient representation of member schools moving around downtown today...
What hurts Norfolk in relation to its peer cities is similar to New Orleans--Norfolk is economically challenged. That is a characteristic that holds a great deal of weight, because otherwise, Norfolk is beautiful, has a compelling allure of urban flair, and has comparable amenities to similarly-sized cities...
I think a other similarity it probably shares with Tampa is that both are underperforming metros for their weight class. Tampa anchors a 3 million person metro but has the general quality metros ~25% smaller in the 2.2-2.3 million range. Norfolk anchors a metro north of 1.7 million but fits the sane profile as a city that truly feels around the 1.2-1.3 million range. I'm kinda polarized at that similarity, and would actually say Tampa is a peer city in that light. At any rate, I am impressed with the process in Downtown Norfolk. I also could see how the comparisons to Baltimore is apt...
I agree with a lot of what you said in this write up. Not only is poverty pervasive in Norfolk, but it is also extremely noticeable due to the fact that public housing and many rough neighborhoods are concentrated close to downtown and Ghent. Whenever I have friends visit from other places, one of the first things they mention is how there are projects everywhere in Norfolk. I don't know if gentrification will ever truly take place in Norfolk since many people are military and choose to reside in Virginia Beach/Chesaepeake/Suffolk instead of investing in revitalizing some of the more urban, but impoverished parts of Norfolk (Park Place, Huntersville, Berkley, Lamberts Point, etc). Nonetheless, as you alluded to in your posts, Norfolk is improving the downtown and gaining more amenities within the city limits, such as an outlet mall and hopefully an extended light rail light that runs from the Naval Base/ODU to the airport.
Reviving the thread with some new considerations...
As of the 2016 Census populatiom estimates, the Hampton Roads metro has a population of 1.727 million. Nashville has blown by it and now has a population advantage of ~140,000 residents and counting...
Hampton Roads locally is distinctly two subregions of a same, larger region: the Peninsula and the Southside. From a social and business perspective, these subregions have their own identities. Thus, when pondering where Norfolk should be viewed amongst Southern, or even national, peers, it's probably necessary to separate Hampton Roads into it's subregions. Because while Norfolk is and will likely always be the heartbeat of the region, it's influence is more directly felt on the Southside...
Using the 2016 population estimates again, in '16 the Peninsula (which is Newport News/Hampton/Williamsburg) had a population of 532,842, with 2.46% growth since 2010...the Southside (Norfolk/Virginia Beach and surroundings) had a population of 1,194,065, with a growth rate of 3.01% since 2010...
Taking the entire metro as a whole (the 1.727 million population) would mean "Norfolk" is a peer city to cities like Austin, Cleveland, Columbus, Indianapolis, San Jose, and Nashville. But most everyone familiar with Norfolk would tell you that those cities are in a different category--Norfolk City doesn't have the look or feel or attributes of an anchor city of roughly 2 million. The number to use when comparing Norfolk is the Southside population of 1.194 million, which is more indicative of Norfolk's positioning...
So by that measure, Norfolk's Southern peer cities are cities within a 20% population radius: Oklahoma City, Memphis, Raleigh, Louisville, Richmond, New Orleans, Birmingham, and Tulsa. The Corpus Christi comment upthread is way off target (though I'd be interested in hearing a Corpus Christi v. Newport News comparison, as that's more on target). This makes sense for several reasons, one of which is by growth rates, Norfolk is right in line with Louisville, Memphis, and Birmingham...
But wait, theres more!
The Southside--which is what "Norfolk" truly is in function--is 69.14% of the Hampton Roads metro population. While this is harder to prove, I can conceptualize the Southside as 69.14% of the metro's GDP, which in 2015 was $95,680 billion. Again, using the '15 GDP figures and taking the entire metro as "Norfolk", one would be led to believe Norfolk is a peer city, economically, to Nashville, San Antonio, Las Vegas, and Milwaukee...except nobody would actually compare Norfolk City to those cities as equals...
69.14% of GDP Hampton Roads is $66,153 billion. Again this is a better indicator of Norfolk City's strength and class, and some of the same Southern cities pop up in the radius: New Orleans, Raleigh, Richmond, Oklahoma City, Memphis, Louisville, Jacksonville, Birmingham, Tulsa...
As it's entirely within the realm of possibility to conceptualize "Norfolk" with a $70B GDP rather than a near $100B GDP, I'm comfortable with this number...
So Norfolk's peer cities of the South are pretty much the nine cities listed two paragraphs above. And nationally, it would have the similar (but not exact) peers as those cities like Providence, Hartford, Salt Lake, Buffalo, Rochester, Grand Rapids, Tucson, and Honolulu...
Now obviously, we can get more detailed when naming peer cities but economy and population seem to be the long-standing, widely accepted, two most accepted criteria...
Now, of its peer Southern cities, Norfolk has the third-lowest population growth rate (only ahead of Memphis and Birmingham), and third-lowest growth rate in economy 2010-2015 (only ahead of Memphis and New Orleans). It's going to be very interesting to watch going forward if and how Norfolk keeps pace with its peers...
I've always felt Norfolk had some shared commonalities with Buffalo and Memphis and that's something I'm going to explore for fun going forward. I'd also like to hear people's interpretations of Newport News, a city never spoken of, but one that essentially heads it's own urban area and is the same rough size as more popular smaller Southern cities like Daytona, Augusta, Durham, and Chattanooga. I've never thought of Newport News singularly either, but it was it's own MSA once upon a time and to this day, maintains a notoriety as "the city" and epicenter of Virginia's Lower Peninsula...
Also want to add that Norfolk has a long reputation as a high-crime city within Virginia, but actually is one of the safest cities in its peer group. As of 6/25, the murder rates for the peer group are as follows:
Raleigh 12/2.61
Oklahoma City 33/5.17 Norfolk 18/7.35
Jacksonville 65/7.38
Louisville 52/8.44* (can't find up to date numbers)
Memphis 96/14.72
Richmond 39/17.49
Birmingham 49/23.11
New Orleans 92/23.53
One area that Norfolk is comparably well at versus it's peers...
Norfolk is a tough city to place because it is part of a multinodal metro. While it is unquestionably the premium city of Hampton Roads, its position in the national lexicon isnt nearly as clear...
This subject has arisen in other discissions a time or two on this boarf, but never in specific topic. As someone who grew up in Virginia and has an affinity for Norfolk, I see it as a step behind Raleigh and Richmond, but I'm interested in others' thoughts...
Compare based on economy, urban amenities, urbanity (city feel), demography, quality of life, wages and income, geowth rates, and educational prowess (primary and collegiate)...
Does Norfolk belong in the same tier with:
Richmond, Raleigh, Jacksonville, Memphis, Louisville, New Orleans.....
Or is it more alike:
Greensboro, Durham, Charleston, Columbia, Oklahoma City, Tulsa, Knoxville...
Or is Norfolk somewhere in between?
Keep in mind when seperating the city from the metro, Virginia Beach and Newport News are also essentially anchor cities that could exist just fine sans Norfolk. Granted, VB would probably be a lot smaller in the vein of Atlantic City or Myrtle, and the News would be a 500,000 to 600,000 metro, but they'd still be self-supporting...
Thanks for the input!
I never came back to this thread after living in Norfolk. Living here taught me that Norfolk is definitely NOT unquestionably the primate city of the region. It shares that honor equally with Virginia Beach. There are unique qualities specific to the cities individually, but in general locals don't view one as having a higher esteem than the other, at least not on The Southside...
Virginia Beach has more name recognition on a national scale. Next time you're in an airport, look at the flight boards and you'll more than likely see Virginia Beach in parentheses next to Norfolk, Va or Norfolk International Airport...
In truth, Norfolk and Virginia Beach share a twin city dynamic not unlike somewhere like Minneapolis and St Paul. Both cities bleed into each other along a shared ~7.5 mile border, and there are many areas within both that look identical. There are many, many people who live in one and work in the other, every native I met from one had relatives in the other, and many people take part in the "things to do" that both cities offer, although both cities can support themselves to where you don't have to go to the next city to find entertainment.
I'm giving this backdrop to say that while the title specifically references Norfolk, it really means Norfolk and Virginia Beach, they are the same city in terms of comparison to other places and what they offer on a macro scale. You really can't separate one from the other...
I'd also like to say that this is my favorite place I've ever lived in my adult life. I found my "there", there. I miss it terribly and hope to eventually find my way back and settle, live out my life there...
So six years after cresting this thread, and after two years of living here, I don't think it's hard at all to tier Norfolk/Virginia Beach. In 2021 estimates, the Southside had about ~1.206 million residents, with a metropolitan GDP in 2020 of ~$67.273B. Norfolk's peers by population:
Tucson, Rochester, Grand Rapids, Birmingham, Buffalo, Hartford, New Orleans, Salt Lake City, Louisville, Richmond, Memphis
Norfolk's peers by economic weight:
Grand Rapids, Honolulu, Birmingham, Rochester, Albany, Omaha, Buffalo, Louisville, Oklahoma City, New Orleans, Memphis
The southern cities that are peers on both counts are Birmingham, New Orleans, Louisville, and Memphis. In 2022, those are Norfolk's peer cities of the South, with Rochester, Grand Rapids, and Buffalo being the three non-southern cities that are peers on both counts...
I never came back to this thread after living in Norfolk. Living here taught me that Norfolk is definitely NOT unquestionably the primate city of the region. It shares that honor equally with Virginia Beach. There are unique qualities specific to the cities individually, but in general locals don't view one as having a higher esteem than the other, at least not on The Southside...
Virginia Beach has more name recognition on a national scale. Next time you're in an airport, look at the flight boards and you'll more than likely see Virginia Beach in parentheses next to Norfolk, Va or Norfolk International Airport...
In truth, Norfolk and Virginia Beach share a twin city dynamic not unlike somewhere like Minneapolis and St Paul. Both cities bleed into each other along a shared ~7.5 mile border, and there are many areas within both that look identical. There are many, many people who live in one and work in the other, every native I met from one had relatives in the other, and many people take part in the "things to do" that both cities offer, although both cities can support themselves to where you don't have to go to the next city to find entertainment.
I'm giving this backdrop to say that while the title specifically references Norfolk, it really means Norfolk and Virginia Beach, they are the same city in terms of comparison to other places and what they offer on a macro scale. You really can't separate one from the other...
I'd also like to say that this is my favorite place I've ever lived in my adult life. I found my "there", there. I miss it terribly and hope to eventually find my way back and settle, live out my life there...
So six years after cresting this thread, and after two years of living here, I don't think it's hard at all to tier Norfolk/Virginia Beach. In 2021 estimates, the Southside had about ~1.206 million residents, with a metropolitan GDP in 2020 of ~$67.273B. Norfolk's peers by population:
Tucson, Rochester, Grand Rapids, Birmingham, Buffalo, Hartford, New Orleans, Salt Lake City, Louisville, Richmond, Memphis
Norfolk's peers by economic weight:
Grand Rapids, Honolulu, Birmingham, Rochester, Albany, Omaha, Buffalo, Louisville, Oklahoma City, New Orleans, Memphis
The southern cities that are peers on both counts are Birmingham, New Orleans, Louisville, and Memphis. In 2022, those are Norfolk's peer cities of the South, with Rochester, Grand Rapids, and Buffalo being the three non-southern cities that are peers on both counts...
Exactly, leavingVA Beach traveling to Norfolk even crossing the bridge into Hampton is like one cohesive area which does look to be a pleasurable area to live.
Exactly, leavingVA Beach traveling to Norfolk even crossing the bridge into Hampton is like one cohesive area which does look to be a pleasurable area to live.
I would say Hampton and Newport News have that same singular, cohesive city aesthetic as Virginia Beach abd Norfolk. Crossing the bridge from Southside to Peninsula, or vice versa, definitely breaks up the cohesiveness...
But Hampton and NPN are basically one place...
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