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My family lives in SF now after moving there from Chicago, and I think Chicago feels more urban. San Francisco feels just a bit more quaint, and doesn't feel as stuffy compared to some places in Chicago. I know there are statistics out there that would debunk my perception but that's the surest way I can compare two cities -- my instinct.
That's fine I'll let only Chicago, LA, and NYC get away with saying they're bigger than the bay.
The bay is more compressed than any other metro in the US, 900 miles of land and we've reached a population of 5.5M-6M and it takes Phily over 2K miles to get that same population.
I know. Why take little ole scrantiX's opinion on it. I'll tell you why, its denser, its more compact, its more urban, its more compressed, and its true. Facts prove it, experience proves it, and anyone whose not a Philadelphian knows it. The bay does feel like the 4th largest metro in the US!
LOL people in DC can talk about how much they're connected to Baltimore all they want, the area in between Baltimore and DC feels like an inbred case of rural meets low density suburbia. That's not like the bay at all, not even like DFW.
That's fine I'll let only Chicago, LA, and NYC get away with saying they're bigger than the bay.
The bay is more compressed than any other metro in the US, 900 miles of land and we've reached a population of 5.5M-6M and it takes Phily over 2K miles to get that same population.
I know. Why take little ole scrantiX's opinion on it. I'll tell you why, its denser, its more compact, its more urban, its more compressed, and its true. Facts prove it, experience proves it, and anyone whose not a Philadelphian knows it. The bay does feel like the 4th largest metro in the US!
I still love Boston though!
I would say 3rd IMO, you could be in hickville real quick in chicago, same can't be said of the BAY
I hate to answer for someone else (because I could be wrong), but I believe that by "retail nodes within residential neighborhoods" he means like these:
I would say 3rd IMO, you could be in hickville real quick in chicago, same can't be said of the BAY
How?
I was just in SF last week, and it didnt take us long to get out to the middle of nowhere to go hike. Not long whatsoever.
The fact that SF is compact, would suggest that it takes up a lesser area, because it does.
The Bay Area is not ahead of Chicago, flat out. You can study pictures, all kinds of angles, graphs, stats, etc. to make it look more impressive, but at the end of the day, nobody cares about style points unless youre from the Bay Area. Its not 3rd, sorry.
In 2005 I briefly stayed over night in Berlin. I had someone drive me through the city so I could at least see some of it, I was impressed by how urban and large the city felt but at the same time it illuminated light across the city, not much pedestrian life at night but the only three other places I've ever felt that were Toronto, San Francisco, and Chicago. The size of the city just swallows you, the lights lead you, and the quiet surrounds you. It's like going through a dark tunnel but finding that ray of light that will guide you through the canyons of the city around you.
I would have also said NYC and LA but LA is still vibrant at night, you wont be the only one on the roads and NYC is just, well, NYC.
I've always loved LA for everything that San Francisco isn't and I've always loved San Francisco for everything LA isn't. Together they make our state complete IMO. After seeing Toronto and Chicago and NYC, I feel they too, have a similar relationship. There's an untouchable beauty to a city that illuminates light through dense but very solemn streets, it almost feels like you've escaped a cavern and discovered a world that belong to you.
I would have been pleased to have included Boston in the mix but the city goes away too soon before you get that same feeling, the one I had in Berlin. That picture of San Francisco at twilight, depicts similarly to the conditions of my brief stay in the German city.
What always makes me chuckle is when people say (as has been said numerous times in this thread) that Atlanta is "urban in Downtown and Midtown only" (as if that's a small area) and by proxy are basically saying that everything out from there is just miles upon miles of houses.
Back here in reality, outside of Downtown and Midtown are several nodes of retail and residential (what's called mixed use today) in the center of just about every neighborhood. These districts were built when the neighborhoods were, which they themselves were built essentially as their own cities that were connected to Atlanta proper by streetcar (what is called TOD today), and then annexed by the city in the early part of the 20th century. Along with the examples above are places like Little 5 Points, EAV, Atkins Park, 04W, Edgewood, West End, Cascade Heights, Sweet Auburn, Gleenwood Park, Grant Park, Poncey-Highland, West Midtown, Cabbagge town, and a bunch more I won't list here.
All of these areas are served either directly (or in close proximity) to MARTA rail and spaced a few miles a part from each other in basically a loop around the city...which also happens to fall within the 22 mile Beltline loop that is currently being redeveloped to connect these neighborhoods directly with each other with transit (right now, all points on MARTA head to Downtown and Midtown) and has in it's plan to redevelop industrial areas in between in the same fashion of these older districts.
Beyond this ring of neighborhoods and retail areas, other similar "Downtown" areas serve the inner ring "suburbs" of East Point, College Park, Chamblee, Decatur, and Avondale. These areas were cities in their own right prior to the expansion of the Atlanta sprawl bubble, and take on a characteristic of in town neighborhoods above. They also all have MARTA stations within their center and offer quick access into the central city.
Now when it comes to Buckhead....that's a little bit of a special case. It was developed in a more strictly suburban method for most of the 20th century. While it has it's own neighborhood residential/retail nodes like the older parts of the city, they aren't nearly as cohesive for the most part as the one's mentioned above. Also, the CBD of Buckhead has developed in a completely more "modern" way more akin to Brickell in Miami than Midtown or Downtown Atlanta. In fact, I'd say they're pretty much the same with both having dozens of highrise residential towers with a rapid transit line snaking through it...and filled with a population wealthy enough to not use public transportation on a regular basis.
That's because in the city of Atlanta itself, the main urban areas ARE Downtown and Midtown. Midtown is rather small....limited by the downtown connector on the west and historic neighborhoods to the east. I'd say Midtown has more amenities then downtown, despite being newer and smaller.
Downtown is big, but a large part of it is WASTED due to parking lots, especially on the east side of Peachtree St. which takes AWAY from urbanity. There are many streets in downtown Atlanta that has amlost nothing retail or commercial wise on them. That's terrible planning. Walkers don't want to see blank walls. They want to see store fronts, people walking about, etc. THAT'S URBANITY and Downtown atlanta lacks that for the most part but the main artieries. It's sad when I, a GSU student who used to live in the Commons on Piedmont struggled to go out and get something to eat in Downtown. You have to walk not only 10 minutes for the heart of the restaurant scene, but after 6, most of those places are CLOSED.
Compared to cities like LA, Chicago, and New York which has people walking on most streets and has restaurants on most streets, not just the main avenues. I've been to those cities before so I know.
If you and others in Atlanta been to REAL big cities, you would know what true urbanity is. Atlanta is not that. It definitely doesn't have vibrancy. Whoo, you have people walking before 6. Grats, now where is everyone after 6?
Midtown is the closest thing Atlanta has to true urbanity and that's still has a long way to go. It also has the most potential. Unless Atlanta gets rid of those god forsaken parking lots in downtown and put up some damn mixed used developments there, it will always be bad and will never have true urbanity and density.
That's the truth. I'm tired of Atlanta posters boosting Atlanta when it's far from the truth. Atlanta needs to look to those cities and SF to see how to develop a real big city.
Location: The Greatest city on Earth: City of Atlanta Proper
8,485 posts, read 14,990,056 times
Reputation: 7333
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ant131531
That's because in the city of Atlanta itself, the main urban areas ARE Downtown and Midtown. Midtown is rather small....limited by the downtown connector on the west and historic neighborhoods to the east. I'd say Midtown has more amenities then downtown, despite being newer and smaller.
Downtown is big, but a large part of it is WASTED due to parking lots, especially on the east side of Peachtree St. which takes AWAY from urbanity. There are many streets in downtown Atlanta that has amlost nothing retail or commercial wise on them. That's terrible planning. Walkers don't want to see blank walls. They want to see store fronts, people walking about, etc. THAT'S URBANITY and Downtown atlanta lacks that for the most part but the main artieries. It's sad when I, a GSU student who used to live in the Commons on Piedmont struggled to go out and get something to eat in Downtown. You have to walk not only 10 minutes for the heart of the restaurant scene, but after 6, most of those places are CLOSED.
Compared to cities like LA, Chicago, and New York which has people walking on most streets and has restaurants on most streets, not just the main avenues. I've been to those cities before so I know.
If you and others in Atlanta been to REAL big cities, you would know what true urbanity is. Atlanta is not that. It definitely doesn't have vibrancy. Whoo, you have people walking before 6. Grats, now where is everyone after 6?
Midtown is the closest thing Atlanta has to true urbanity and that's still has a long way to go. It also has the most potential. Unless Atlanta gets rid of those god forsaken parking lots in downtown and put up some damn mixed used developments there, it will always be bad and will never have true urbanity and density.
That's the truth. I'm tired of Atlanta posters boosting Atlanta when it's far from the truth. Atlanta needs to look to those cities and SF to see how to develop a real big city.
While you make valid points about the part of Downtown where you live, you don't actually think that's all there is do you? I checked your posting history and I'm going to go out on a limb and say you moving into the dorms at GSU was your first experience living in Atlanta. Perhaps no one told you, but literally 3 years ago there was almost nothing but a bunch of abandoned buildings, State government offices and empty lots where your dorm sits. 10 years before that it was on the edge of one of the largest housing projects in the city (no lie) and GSU was just a commuter school with no dorms. In short, you picked a bad time to go to GSU because it in the middle of a transition. There were big plans for East Downtown, but they fell through because of the recession. Eventually things will come to that area, but for now you are unfortunately stuck with the experience you have.
Now, step back a second and realize that you are being a little self centered here in your angst. Do you think students at the Georgia Tech, the AUC, or Emory have to deal with businesses that cater more to the business and government workers in the area where your school is? In case you were wondering, the answer is no. Those schools have been around for a lot longer and thus have business that cater to them. Your experience is also not even across even Downtown itself. In West Downtown and the Hotel District, which caters to tourists and a has a fairly sizable residential population, restaurants don't close with the banks. There are bars and other entertainment venues.
Basically, where you live is a part of Downtown which every city has: a zone that historically is focused on business and business only. Do you really think ALL of NYC or Chicago or LA or any other city is buzzing 24/7? They have their dead areas too, and you just have the unfortunate luck of living in the middle of Atlanta's. Do you honestly think your experience is normal in the rest of the city?
What I'm tired of though are posts like yours which, and I mean no personal disrespect to you, are lazy. You just look out your window and base everything on what you see there. You know, you could just like get a bike and go just a few blocks (no seriously, it's just four blocks) over to the intersection of Edgewood and Boulevard which is humming well in to the night several bars and restaurants as well as one of the best "pool halls" around. If biking or walking four blocks is too much for you, you could just hop on the train and go the ONE station to get to this neighborhood....or just keep going a whole TWO stops and being in the middle of Little 5 points which is always alive too. Or you could get on another line and head in to Midtown, or take a 15 minute bus ride and go in to the Highlands...basically what I'm getting at is that you should expand horizons beyond your bubble and choose a better neighborhood to live in next semester.
Edit: For the record, contrary to what you posted, I have lived in other cities. In NYC, in Manila, in a lot of other places big and small. I'm no booster, I love living here because I love living here and I'm not clouded by the "it has the best and served on platter on me to enjoy" mentality so many of you young folks have today.
Last edited by waronxmas; 09-11-2012 at 09:36 PM..
While you make valid points about the part of Downtown where you live, you don't actually think that's all there is do you? I checked your posting history and I'm going to go out on a limb and say you moving into the dorms at GSU was your first experience living in Atlanta. Perhaps no one told you, but literally 3 years ago there was almost nothing but a bunch of abandoned buildings, State government offices and empty lots where your dorm sits. 10 years before that it was on the edge of one of the largest housing projects in the city (no lie) and GSU was just a commuter school with no dorms. In short, you picked a bad time to go to GSU because it in the middle of a transition. There were big plans for East Downtown, but they fell through because of the recession. Eventually things will come to that area, but for now you are unfortunately stuck with the experience you have.
Now, step back a second and realize that you are being a little self centered here in your angst. Do you think students at the Georgia Tech, the AUC, or Emory have to deal with businesses that cater more to the business and government workers in the area where your school is? In case you were wondering, the answer is no. Those schools have been around for a lot longer and thus have business that cater to them. Your experience is also not even across even Downtown itself. In West Downtown and the Hotel District, which caters to tourists and a has a fairly sizable residential population, restaurants don't close with the banks. There are bars and other entertainment venues.
Basically, where you live is a part of Downtown which every city has: a zone that historically is focused on business and business only. Do you really think ALL of NYC or Chicago or LA or any other city is buzzing 24/7? They have their dead areas too, and you just have the unfortunate luck of living in the middle of Atlanta's. Do you honestly think your experience is normal in the rest of the city?
What I'm tired of though are posts like yours which, and I mean no personal disrespect to you, are lazy. You just look out your window and base everything on what you see there. You know, you could just like get a bike and go just a few blocks (no seriously, it's just four blocks) over to the intersection of Edgewood and Boulevard which is humming well in to the night several bars and restaurants as well as one of the best "pool halls" around. If biking or walking four blocks is too much for you, you could just hop on the train and go the ONE station to get to this neighborhood....or just keep going a whole TWO stops and being in the middle of Little 5 points which is always alive too. Or you could get on another line and head in to Midtown, or take a 15 minute bus ride and go in to the Highlands...basically what I'm getting at is that you should expand horizons beyond your bubble and choose a better neighborhood to live in next semester.
Edit: For the record, contrary to what you posted, I have lived in other cities. In NYC, in Manila, in a lot of other places big and small. I'm no booster, I love living here because I love living here and I'm not clouded by the "it has the best and served on platter on me to enjoy" mentality so many of you young folks have today.
The irony is this is walking 4 blocks in Atlanta cna potentially be dangerous for the reason that NO ONE IS OUT WALKING AT NIGHT BECAUSE OF THE LACK OF RESIDENTS AND DENSITY...see where I'm getting at? Not to mention, the blocks in downtown can be HUGE.
In New York or SF, people are walking so it's not as dangerous to go walk four blocks to a resturants, but I mean, it's freaking New York so there's a restaurant on almost everyone corner anyway so how a city is supposed to be.
That's the problem with Atlanta. You have to go too far to get what you want. Why should I have to take a damn train to a restaurant area? I should be able to find some restaurants within .25 miles of where I stay at...else there is a lack of walk-ability and urbanity. I mean, I'm in the freaking HEART OF THE CITY for god sake.
Admit it. Atlanta lacks true urbanity...even in the Downtown area. Midtown is half way there. It's urban fabric is ruined by parking lots and empty lots. No one should have to walk over 4 blocks or take a train 15 minutes to get to a restaurant area. That's insane. That's not urbanity then.
It doesn't matter. I'm getting the hell out of Atlanta once I'm finished with college. I want to live in a true big city where I can take the subway/train ALL around the city...not just in limited areas...where I can walk to places, grocery shop(Did I mention no grocery shops in downtown also?), go to nightclubs, etc all without having to use my damn car. New York, Chicago, LA, SF, DC...anyone of those cities would be fine for me and I'll be happy. I'm not happy in Atlanta. It's not a true big city and it lacks true urbanity that is to my taste.
Atlanta can't compete with the big dogs yet. Try building in it's core instead of around it, then maybe, it can become truly world class and truly urban.
Location: The Greatest city on Earth: City of Atlanta Proper
8,485 posts, read 14,990,056 times
Reputation: 7333
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ant131531
The irony is this is walking 4 blocks in Atlanta cna potentially be dangerous for the reason that NO ONE IS OUT WALKING AT NIGHT BECAUSE OF THE LACK OF RESIDENTS AND DENSITY...see where I'm getting at? Not to mention, the blocks in downtown can be HUGE.
Are you seriously afraid to walk four blocks? Give me a break.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ant131531
In New York or SF, people are walking so it's not as dangerous to go walk four blocks to a resturants, but I mean, it's freaking New York so there's a restaurant on almost everyone corner anyway so how a city is supposed to be.
Again, your particular neighborhood is not the norm. In my neighborhood, in the same city, I'm within walking distance of at least a dozen restaurants alone.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ant131531
That's the problem with Atlanta. You have to go too far to get what you want. Why should I have to take a damn train to a restaurant area? I should be able to find some restaurants within .25 miles of where I stay at...else there is a lack of walk-ability and urbanity. I mean, I'm in the freaking HEART OF THE CITY for god sake.
Seriously, it's not that far.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ant131531
Admit it. Atlanta lacks true urbanity...even in the Downtown area. Midtown is half way there. It's urban fabric is ruined by parking lots and empty lots. No one should have to walk over 4 blocks or take a train 15 minutes to get to a restaurant area. That's insane. That's not urbanity then.
The problem with you density folks is that you are so black and white. If it's not like whatever you hold to be the best, then it doesn't exist at all.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ant131531
It doesn't matter. I'm getting the hell out of Atlanta once I'm finished with college. I want to live in a true big city where I can take the subway/train ALL around the city...not just in limited areas...where I can walk to places, grocery shop(Did I mention no grocery shops in downtown also?), go to nightclubs, etc all without having to use my damn car. New York, Chicago, LA, SF, DC...anyone of those cities would be fine for me and I'll be happy. I'm not happy in Atlanta. It's not a true big city and it lacks true urbanity that is to my taste.
Why don't you just go now? You staying here is pretty much a drain anyway since you have nothing to offer but complaints, so it's no loss on our part. We'll keep chugging forward towards what we want/need to be.
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