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I answered you, or better yet, John did Kat....you just missed it repeatedly, your entire life tring to understand the faith it seems. All you had to do was read the word of God, and it is as plain as day, right in front of you. Christ SAID He was Deity repetedly, that was established, but yet you defy?
The Flesh = dwelt among us, and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father.
I answered you, or better yet, John did Kat....you just missed it repeatedly, your entire life tring to understand the faith it seems. All you had to do was read the word of God, and it is as plain as day, right in front of you. Christ SAID He was Deity repetedly, that was established, but yet you defy?
Only the deluded would say that CHRIST SAID he was deity.... REPEATEDLY? This was most certainly not established...
Obviously if what you say is true and it was ESTABLISHED.. then it would be silly to debate that Christ is deity..
Here are the texts that trinitarian's say are DIRECT CLAIMS Christ made to being God:
"I tell you that one greater than the temple is here. If you had known what these words mean, 'I desire mercy, not sacrifice,' you would not have condemned the innocent. For the Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath."
DOES this count as a direct claim? Trinitarians forget that a DIRECT CLAIM is "I AM GOD"... An INDIRECT CLAIM is anything else...
Some trinitarians say that since Jesus speaks as though He has personally observed the history of Jerusalem then he must be God: 0 Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling.
DIRECT CLAIM?
Jesus tells a paralyzed man, "My son, your sins are forgiven."
ONLY God can forgive sins... not that Jesus actually did because he is making a statement not describing an action and even then God gave him the authority to forgive sins.. is that a DIRECT CLAIM BY JESUS THAT HE IS GOD? Hardly.
So then Jesus is being ironic when he states: "Why do you call me good? No one is good but God alone" ... God is Good.. Christ is good... therefore Christ must be God?
DIRECT CLAIM? NO
There are more.. but I don't think it's necessary to go through these..
Instead how about I provide some trinitarians to tell you that the doctrine is not TAUGHT in the bible but is INFERRED... etc.. then perhaps you will see that there is no "establishing" that Christ claimed to be God because he did not.
2 Chronicles 6:18 "But will God indeed dwell with mankind on the earth? Behold, heaven and the highest heaven cannot contain You; how much less this house which I have built.
THE HOUSE can't contain God but you think a human body can?
Quote:
The Flesh = dwelt among us, and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father.
Now try not to spin this one because you simply can't. Open your heart and recieve His grace, that is Christ's grace.
I'll say it one more time... The logos became flesh.. not Jesus .. LOGOS became FLESH! We understand that it refers to Jesus but it is not saying that the WORD MORPHED INTO AN EMBRYO! For goodness sake!
The word is God in the first verse. Logos is God... the message is God...
The message became flesh: Jesus spread the gospel with words, ideas, etc.
Jesus gave the message (logos) to other flesh (the disciples) when he left the earth so they could be "the word become flesh" TOO!
I just don't get what your mental block is here or I would try to help you out.
Last edited by katjonjj; 03-01-2010 at 11:35 PM..
Reason: added some stuff and fixed quotes
There are no clear verses that state Jesus is God.. why the secret?
John 14:9 - Jesus answered: "Don't you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, 'Show us the Father'?
Well I often forget some of the subtle messages Christ gave to those who "get it" or perhaps more spiritually put those who via the Holy Spirit receive an understanding that orherwise cannot be understood by unbelievers. The later is vitually impossible as it isn't revealed. With that said it all goes back to "Let US make man in our image" This implies that all the manifestations of God (three) are in the creation senario. Jesus dropped a few clues to those who are in the "duh" mode although many then and today are clueless. I will ask Jesus someday "Why Lord didn't you have one of the transcriptionists like you used to write scripture,author "Jesus the deity for Dummies"? Seriously, Jesus said "If you have seen me you have seen the Father" put another way "If you have seen
me you have seen God" wait he never said that....yes He did....no He didn't....please...go away. The Jesus said "I and my Father are ONE"
Oh! that must mean their friends (buds!) no it means their one in the same hellllooooo! He is the King of Kings huh? The Lord of Lords what? the
Alpha the Omega the BEGINNING and the END say what? He was conceived by the Holy Spirit, rose from the dead and 500 cottonin' pickin'
believers and 11 disciples witnessed Him rising up in the clouds. Not good enough? Get your head examined or better yet go to your room for time out.
John 14:9 - Jesus answered: "Don't you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, 'Show us the Father'?
Why is this even being debated?
Jesus is Lord.
Tell me... when the VP of a company goes to conduct a meeting in place of president of the company, and someone asks why the president is not there... do you think the VP would be correct in saying... IF you see me you see the president?
Really... The VP can REPRESENT the president IF the president gives the VP the AUTHORITY to do so...
You probably wouldn't even bat an eye and you certainly wouldn't think the president had 'turned into' the VP... would you?
John 14:10 "Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father is in Me? The words that I say to you I do not speak on My own initiative, but the Father abiding in Me does His works.
It is supposed to be the same with Christians... if you see a Christian you should see the Father whom they serve...
Christ did nothing on his own. He was the image of and the representative of the Father...This does nothing to prove Jesus is God.
Isaiah 7:14
Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign: The virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son, and will call him Immanuel
Matthew 1:23
"The virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son, and they will call him Immanuel" —which means, "God with us."
Enough said.
Does that also mean that those whose name is REALLY Immanuel are also gods?
God is WITH me right now... Christians say God is with them all the time...
Does that mean they are God..
Come on guys... if this was any other book you would not think such things but since you have been TAUGHT that Jesus MUST be God then you think everything in the bible is proof of that. Let us use some common sense here!
Too bad Jesus wasn't REALLY named Immanuel... Mary must have missed this verse in Isaiah.
Kat, is it OK if I worship Jesus? He is Lord, or no?
I'll stick with my belief that Jesus is God. Maybe it's not possible for finite to understand infinite.
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Deity of Christ
