Regarding the Pre-Tribulational Rapture (bishop, devil, interpretaion, charity)
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Yeah well you are wrong, I DO know all about 70ad, I said in my first post it is not the prophecies that did come to pass then or seemed to it is the prophecies which did NOT happen at that time which make preterism non viable.
It always has been understood by the church that Jesus "little apocalypsis" had a measure of application to that generation but that it also had application for a further fulilment in the last days.
That generation of Jewish political and religious leaders DID fill up the measure of sin but what did Jesus say? "if they do this when the wood is green, what will they do when it is dry?"
Our generation has sinned against great light, if the salvation army alone was the only work raised up of God, in the generation that it was raised up it was a tremendous testimony of what could be achieved if men and women would unite their hearts in peace and love and reach out to their world, they chose war instead.
The tribulation to come comes not upon the people of the world, they shall be living as in the generation of Noah, giving and being given in marriage, the tribulation is coming upon the church. When they shall achieve peace in the world, sudden destruction. "They will deliver you up to tribulation and put you to death" tribulation therefore is not God's wrath but man's persecution.
So there are two comings?..one way back then to destroy the temple and another time now to snatch people away and in judgment?
Where do you find another second coming of Christ in scripture... I only see one..
John addresses his revelation to seven churches.. then he states: (Rev. 1:6) and has made us to be a kingdom and priests to serve his God and Father—to him be glory and power for ever and ever! Amen.
The US here is John and the seven churches... THEN.. they are the overcomers.
Matthew 19:28 And Jesus said to them, "Truly I say to you, that you who have followed Me, in the regeneration when the Son of Man will sit on His glorious throne, you also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
So whomever he is speaking to in this verse are the ones who will judge while he reigns... not now.. THEN.
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Nah ah this is purely preterist invention, Jesus never returned to destroy the temple in 70ad the Roman's destroyed it, it is in the history books.
So you seriously think that the destruction of the temple in 70ad was not fulfillment of Matt... when Jesus says not one stone will remain on the other?
Come now.. That was the whole purpose for the woes against the Jewish Leadership in Luke 11... They are the ones who fail to believe. Now do you understand why there is little doubt in my mind about the second coming happening within the lifetime of those Jesus spoke to about it rather than now when we are not even being persecuted... then they were forced to eat their own children or die if starvation while the armies surround the city... How is that not horrible enough to fulfill prophecy?
So you seriously think that the destruction of the temple in 70ad was not fulfillment of Matt... when Jesus says not one stone will remain on the other?
Come now.. That was the whole purpose for the woes against the Jewish Leadership in Luke 11... They are the ones who fail to believe. Now do you understand why there is little doubt in my mind about the second coming happening within the lifetime of those Jesus spoke to about it rather than now when we are not even being persecuted... then they were forced to eat their own children or die if starvation while the armies surround the city... How is that not horrible enough to fulfill prophecy?
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I didn't say a thing in the world about the destruction of the temple not being a fulfilment of Jesu's word, Imma saying Jesus didn't come back to do it, when He comes back [there is only one second coming,] every eye shall see Him, the tribes of the earth will mourn. It has never happened.
Persecution IS coming and is here in subtle and not so subtle ways, try preaching the gospel, [in Europe at least] and you will know it.
Look stop being mixed up, YOU are the one who said Jesus spoke to His disciples, but the people who suffered the Roman siege were not the disciples, Jesus had warned them to flee, and they did flee. That is recorded also in secular history, the church fled and were ever after considered traitors by the Jews.
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I didn't say a thing in the world about the destruction of the temple not being a fulfilment of Jesu's word, Imma saying Jesus didn't come back to do it, when He comes back [there is only one second coming,] every eye shall see Him, the tribes of the earth will mourn. It has never happened.
Persecution IS coming and is here in subtle and not so subtle ways, try preaching the gospel, [in Europe at least] and you will know it.
Look stop being mixed up, YOU are the one who said Jesus spoke to His disciples, but the people who suffered the Roman siege were not the disciples, Jesus had warned them to flee, and they did flee. That is recorded also in secular history, the church fled and were ever after considered traitors by the Jews.
So you think that Jesus warning them of the wrath to come and that they fled when they saw the city surrounded... that is NOT a fulfillment of end times prophecy?
How do you miss it? show me some scripture that states another tribulation period where christians are to flee when they see certain signs.
So you seriously think that the destruction of the temple in 70ad was not fulfillment of Matt... when Jesus says not one stone will remain on the other?
Come now.. That was the whole purpose for the woes against the Jewish Leadership in Luke 11... They are the ones who fail to believe. Now do you understand why there is little doubt in my mind about the second coming happening within the lifetime of those Jesus spoke to about it rather than now when we are not even being persecuted... then they were forced to eat their own children or die if starvation while the armies surround the city... How is that not horrible enough to fulfill prophecy?
Gideon said, You think with a carnal mind. We know Christians have seen horrors in history, but these horrors pale that of the Great Tribulation. Certainly this prophecy has not been fulfilled. Are you telling us that the Great Tribulation was fulfilled with the events in the first century? You seem to be angry at these atrocities from the first century. Let's not forget how the Roman Catholic church would feed Christians to the lions or burn them at the steak. Virgins were raped, dipped in tar and lit like torches for Roman parties. Even this is not the Great Tribulation. For it takes place in the last 3.5 years of human, secular History. Are you telling us this past already. What are you doing here if it has? What are any of us doing here if it has past already? Your knowledge of scripture is selective and narrow.
Your assumptions are rediculously inaccurate. Jesus came, died on the cross, and ascended to heaven. He will return on the last day when the seventh trupet souds. Scripture clearly tells us that. Paul even thought he would be raptured and immortalized. He thought Jesus would come before he died to immortalize him. He was caught up in the writings and words the Holy Spirit lead him in. We know for a fact he was a martyr and was killed. We can see in his writings he innitially thought Jesus would come to immortalize him, before he would die. When he realized he was going to die a martyrs death. Look what he writes. I have fought a good fight; I have kept the faith. etc, etc. Just because Paul initially thought Jesus would return in his life does not mean he came. We know he did not come in His life time or any time after that.
51Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. Notice how he says and we shall be change. Was Paul change? Absolutely not, Jesus never came in his life time, so Paul died. 53For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
3For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
4And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.
5But watch thou in all things, endure afflictions, do the work of an evangelist, make full proof of thy ministry.
6For I am now ready to be offered, and the time of my departure is at hand.
7I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith:
8Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.
9Do thy diligence to come shortly unto me:
10For Demas hath forsaken me, having loved this present world, and is departed unto Thessalonica; Crescens to Galatia, Titus unto Dalmatia.
11Only Luke is with me. Take Mark, and bring him with thee: for he is profitable to me for the ministry.
12And Tychicus have I sent to Ephesus.
13The cloke that I left at Troas with Carpus, when thou comest, bring with thee, and the books, but especially the parchments.
14Alexander the coppersmith did me much evil: the Lord reward him according to his works:
15Of whom be thou ware also; for he hath greatly withstood our words.
16At my first answer no man stood with me, but all men forsook me: I pray God that it may not be laid to their charge.
17Notwithstanding the Lord stood with me, and strengthened me; that by me the preaching might be fully known, and that all the Gentiles might hear: and I was delivered out of the mouth of the lion. 18And the Lord shall deliver me from every evil work, and will preserve me unto his heavenly kingdom: to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.
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Last edited by Gideon7620; 11-29-2009 at 05:26 PM..
So you seriously think that the destruction of the temple in 70ad was not fulfillment of Matt... when Jesus says not one stone will remain on the other?
Come now.. That was the whole purpose for the woes against the Jewish Leadership in Luke 11... They are the ones who fail to believe. Now do you understand why there is little doubt in my mind about the second coming happening within the lifetime of those Jesus spoke to about it rather than now when we are not even being persecuted... then they were forced to eat their own children or die if starvation while the armies surround the city... How is that not horrible enough to fulfill prophecy?
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If I may say respectfully a mistake is made in understanding that there were three distinct questions here.
The disciples said ooh look at the pretty stones, and Jesus told about how not one stone would be left standing on another, then they asked Him 1. when will these things be, 2. and the sign of Your coming, 3. and the end of the age.
In Jesu's discourse which we call the little apocalypse He answers all three questions and they cover a time span of 2,000 years and counting.
So you think that Jesus warning them of the wrath to come and that they fled when they saw the city surrounded... that is NOT a fulfillment of end times prophecy?
How do you miss it? show me some scripture that states another tribulation period where christians are to flee when they see certain signs.
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How can something that happened 2,000 years ago be fulfilment of end-times prophecy?
There IS no escape from the great tribulation [except for the Jews, that's a new thread I will start I hope] Jesus said they will deliver you up to tribulation and put you to death.
And there is no escape from it "you will be hated by all for My name's sake" "hated in every nation" even your own household and family for "parents will deliver their children up" and "children their parents" if these were Jewish parents by giving up their children they would be betraying their own Jewishness, no this is the church.
There has never been a persecution so awful and so far reaching as this, not in all history. That is why it is called the great tribulation.
The church should be looking to martyrdom not rapture.
But a new strength will come, like Stephen our faces will shine with shekinah glory, many will be saved, as Paul was through Stephen's witness. A new inner joy. God will be with us in a new way and we will know His presence.
There is no such thing as a pre-tribulation rapture in the Bible. It is a false teaching which leads many down a "feel good" path.
If most pastors taught enduring tribulation to the end they would probably lose most of their congregation.
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