Regarding the Pre-Tribulational Rapture (Mary, virgin, apostles, Adam)
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Eusebius, I dont think you realize how devastating your statement that "it never happened" is to the credibility of Jesus Christ. Jesus said it would happen "before that generation passed," and if it did not happen, it would make Christ a false prophet. Jesus said, "Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not see death, till they see the Son of man COMING IN HIS KINGDOM." (Matt.16:28)
And I don't think you realize how devastaing your statement that "it did happen" is to the credibility of Jesus Christ. Jesus said "IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE TRIBULATION IN THOSE DAYS . . . ."
Did all those things occur immediately after the tribulation if indeed it did happen? No
Thank God we have court records and Scofield's ex-wife's testimony to demonstrate the kind of a man he was. Most importantly, we have scriptures to teach us correct doctrine from incorrect doctrine. Sadly, many are trapped in heretical errors Darby and Scofield spread across this nation, when churches were young, weak, and venerable. One cannot deny historical facts. Fundamentalists, in their foolish prides still worship these men in spite of doctrinal truths, and historical facts. Is it any wonder God has said, "10And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved?
11And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: 12That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness." Following error concerning the timing of the second coming of Christ is no light thing. Those whom follow it willfully are in great danger of facing God's wrath. God takes it very seriously; so seriously that he says those whom have pleasure in unrighteousness or in error concerning this timing may be caught in darkness. Once God sends his strong delusion, it will be too late to repent of the error. Think twice and learn some facts before you vehemently protect this heretical doctrine of deceit, created by wicked men. Understand, I am not saying people whom have been taught this doctrine are in danger of God's wrath. What I am saying is those whom teach it; protect it vehemently as it being God's word and truth, and those whom worship men that proclaim this loudly are in danger. Why are they in danger? They are in danger, because they teach something to the masses that is clearly heresy and not found in God's word; yet, they proclaim it as being God's word.
When taking all this into consideration, we must remember what the scripture say concerning discernment of God's word. The carnal man cannot know the things of God; it is evident that Darby and Scofield were carnal by nature; their interpretations of the Lord's second coming are carnal. While scripture tells us we must suffer tribulation until the last day, The Day of the Lord, they tell us Jesus is going to fly us away in a secret rapture seen nowhere in scripture. While the scriptures tell us to build our faith in tribulations, troubles and persecutions, they tell us to have faith in a false doctrine not seen in scripture, which is suppose to deliver us from the things that build our faith, trial, tribulations troubles, and persecution. They are so obviously dead wrong, they could not be any more wrong. It is evident; they have doctrines of demons which go contrary to God's words.
10But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
11For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.
12Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
13Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
14But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. 15But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.
It is high time so called Christians begin to search for truth; there may not be much time to find it. We had better learn the truths in God's words and quit listening to these traditional fables that were created by confused men. We can not play footsy with doctrinal errors. I find it amazing that many pre-tribulationist think we can all get along with differences in doctrine; We can't: it is impossible.
17Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them.
18For they that are such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly; and by good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the simple.
Phillipians 3
16Nevertheless, whereto we have already attained, let us walk by the same rule, let us mind the same thing.
17Brethren, be followers together of me, and mark them which walk so as ye have us for an ensample.
18(For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ:
19Whose end is destruction, whose God is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame, who mind earthly things.)
20For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ: 21Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.
And I don't think you realize how devastaing your statement that "it did happen" is to the credibility of Jesus Christ. Jesus said "IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE TRIBULATION IN THOSE DAYS . . . ."
Did all those things occur immediately after the tribulation if indeed it did happen? No
You miss my point, Jesus said it would happen before THAT GENERATION PASSED. The TRIBULATION of those days was the horrible time of distress that the Jews suffered at the hands of the Romans. All those things did happen. Jesus came on the clouds of heaven in judgment against apostate Israel, and there were some in that generation that did not taste death until they saw him come into his kingdom. How can you place the TRIBULATION of those days two thousand years removed from their context.
The kingdom was "at hand" in the First Century. The Kingdom did come, and all of that generation did not pass. If the kingdom has not yet come, then there must be some in that generation still alive
You miss my point, Jesus said it would happen before THAT GENERATION PASSED. The TRIBULATION of those days was the horrible time of distress that the Jews suffered at the hands of the Romans. All those things did happen. Jesus came on the clouds of heaven in judgment against apostate Israel, and there were some in that generation that did not taste death until they saw him come into his kingdom. How can you place the TRIBULATION of those days two thousand years removed from their context.
The kingdom was "at hand" in the First Century. The Kingdom did come, and all of that generation did not pass. If the kingdom has not yet come, then there must be some in that generation still alive
Gideon said, Jesus spoke of the generation that would see the fig tree spoouting forth again, Israel; this generation would not pass. This reformation of Israel took place nearly 2000 years later. So our generation would not pass until all these things be fulfilled. We must take the verse in context with what Jesus was telling us, learn a parable.
32Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:
33So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors. 34Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
You miss my point, Jesus said it would happen before THAT GENERATION PASSED. The TRIBULATION of those days was the horrible time of distress that the Jews suffered at the hands of the Romans. All those things did happen. Jesus came on the clouds of heaven in judgment against apostate Israel, and there were some in that generation that did not taste death until they saw him come into his kingdom. How can you place the TRIBULATION of those days two thousand years removed from their context.
The kingdom was "at hand" in the First Century. The Kingdom did come, and all of that generation did not pass. If the kingdom has not yet come, then there must be some in that generation still alive
No one saw Jesus come on the clouds of heaven. Not one church father witnessed that, not one historian, no not even one.
The kingdom did not come. In Romans 9-11 Paul details the setting aside of Israel and faith coming to the nations via a different channel.
Thank God we have court records and Scofield's ex-wife's testimony to demonstrate the kind of a man he was. Most importantly, we have scriptures to teach us correct doctrine from incorrect doctrine. Sadly, many are trapped in heretical errors Darby and Scofield spread across this nation, when churches were young, weak, and venerable. One cannot deny historical facts. Fundamentalists, in their foolish prides still worship these men in spite of doctrinal truths, and historical facts. Is it any wonder God has said, "10And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved?
Sorry, but ad hominum attacks prove absolutely nothing.
The very fact you feel you have to use them shows the pitiful state of your ability to prove your point.
Don't you get it? We don't need to look to fallible people to prove that there is going to be a rapture or snatching away. We have the apostle Paul to tell us all about it.
First of all we believers of the nations are changed to fit us for the celestial allotment by wearing the image of the celestial.
Then we, together with all the formerly dead in the Lord, meet the Lord in the air.
Then we are "transported into the kingdom of the Son of His love" in the heavens.
"For our realm is inherrent in the heavens, out of which we are awaiting a saviour also, the Lord, Jesus Christ."
So to recapitulate:
We are changed
We put on our celestial bodies
We meet the Lord in the air
We are transported into the kingdom of the Son of His love
Eusebius;11789647]Sorry, but ad hominum attacks prove absolutely nothing.
The very fact you feel you have to use them shows the pitiful state of your ability to prove your point.
Don't you get it? We don't need to look to fallible people to prove that there is going to be a rapture or snatching away. We have the apostle Paul to tell us all about it.
First of all we believers of the nations are changed to fit us for the celestial allotment by wearing the image of the celestial.
Then we, together with all the formerly dead in the Lord, meet the Lord in the air.
Then we are "transported into the kingdom of the Son of His love" in the heavens.
"For our realm is inherrent in the heavens, out of which we are awaiting a saviour also, the Lord, Jesus Christ."
So to recapitulate:
We are changed
We put on our celestial bodies
We meet the Lord in the air
We are transported into the kingdom of the Son of His love
Our realm is inherrent in the heavens
Gideon said,
[the apostle Paul never said there would be any pre-tribulation rapture. As a matter of scriptural fact, he warned against any such fables, clearly in II Thes 2. You are in error. Can you show us your reasoning, expound on it for us, please; rather than attempting to degrade and defame someone's character with slanderous words, which have no depth, logic, or substance. That would be much more productive. Don't you think? I have given a very valid presentation, with many facts, interpretations, warnings, and substance from God's word, The Blessed Hope of the Believers, about 40 pages and growing. Yet all you can do is call someone's comments pitiful. This is par for the course with pre-tribulationists. They always have to try and reason the Bible away with some new carnal invention they have contrived. Hey let’s face it, Jesus is not coming for his church any time soon. When the tribulation arrives we will find ourselves still here waiting for his Epiphany, Apokolypcia, and Parousia; of which will all occur at the end of the Great Tribulation.
I would love to see where you see a pre-tribulation rapture in scripture. I would love to see you attempt using a form of a verbal plenary, literal interpretation, using expository formats. It will be impossible for you to do so simply because there is no pre-tribulation rapture in scripture. It was a fairy tale created by the goons whom you seem to worship, Scofield, Darby, the Jesuits, and the illuminists. All of whom will take any directly to hell if they continue to worship their heresies before it becomes too late. Once God sends his strong delusion, repentence from error concerning the timing of the Lord will be too late for those whom had pleasure in unrighteousness, error. These are those that receive not the love of the truth concerning our gathering together unto the Lord, as described in II Thes.
Now here is part of my presentation. Where is yours? I would be delighted to see it. This is what Paul clearly has to say. Many words have been interpreted from the Greek text. If you find some error in this presentation, let us know.
Now I would love to see you prove points 4 and 5 that you have listed. It will be impossible to do so. You are living a fairytale, because it is not there or anywhere in scripture. I would further like to see you make a presentation of 40 pages and see what sort of gramatical error you make. BTW, recapitulation has nothing to do with The Day of the Lord. We are only surrounded by facts in scripture; obviously you have'nt the slightest understanding of what these facts are. As I said before, all pretribulationist can do is speak in vague terms and statements. They copy cat from other authors; and they never have the ability to expunge statemenst of others or expound on their fallacies, which are clearly heresy. They rely on church tradition and dogma, rather than biblical interpretations. They vainly worship the doctrines of apostate men as Scofield and Darby, whom were clearly losers.
Clearly here is what you are trying to explain and it can not be done in five itty bitty statements.
Gideon said, The flop-ups pre-tribulationists make here are very obvious. The fact that few recognize this leads us to conclude, not many have studied the second coming. They have settled to be spoon fed lies. Adolph Hitler said, "If you tell someone a lie long enough, they will believe it to be true." This is precisely what Darbyism has accomplished in our churches. Very few pastors know of the truth concerning the post-tribulation return of Christ. They have chosen to take the easy way out by clinging to pre-tribulationism. Most pastors and missionaries would not dare say they believe post-tribulationism is true, as this would have them expelled from their Fundamentalists movements. They are counting on their retirements, so they settle for watered down, vain traditions of man, which God refers to as damnable heresies. If missionaries did this, claimed post-tribulationism as truth, they would be expelled from their mission boards. Now remember, Darby is the father of Fundamentalism, as so may Scofield be considered as one also. So in a sense, they are Darby, and Scofield worshipers. They have chosen to accept error without investigating truth. I would rather be at home typing truth, than to be on a mission field or in a church preaching error concerning the coming of Christ. Jesus does not come to take the church away from the horrors of Satan or before the tribulation begins; this conceptual thought we have proven goes against church history, tradition, and doctrine as recorded in God's Words. We have also noticed it is an escapist attitude that is seated deep in the fallen hearts of man, planted by Satan. He, Christ, God, comes after the workings of Satan, at the end of the Great Tribulation. That is why it is called the Great Tribulation. Throughout Revelation we see an exponential amount of saints being killed for their faith, and for not accepting the mark of the Beast in their right hands or foreheads. It is a time of purification for the church; where the trying of her faith, purges her as gold. The trials, tribulations, persecutions, and troubles she is to experience will build her faith greatly, as never seen before. As we viewed earlier these trouble will continue until the revelation or apokolypcia or our Lord, at the end of the GT. We see that God does not let us rest from tribulation until Jesus is revealed in fire, with His mighty angels, at the end of the GT. So sorry to break the news to you; we can expect to suffer until Jesus comes at the end of the GT. Ok, now we can go on to cover the next portion of this study, I Thessalonians 4:13-18.
6Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you; 7And to you who are troubledrest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, This is when the rest is realized, not seven years earlier in a secret, mysterious, hidden, no one knows about coming that is not found anywhere in scripture. It is realized seven years later, at the end ofthe GT, when Jesus is revealed in fire; there is nothing secret about that as we said earlier.
13But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. 14For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 15For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 18Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
This we are telling you by God's word and authority, the living saints present on earth, remaining until Jesus returns, will not prevent the dead saints in any way. Remember Paul told us of the death and resurrection of Christ; now he brings it to their personal level. We see Jesus descends with the voice ofthe Archangel, a Loud Shout, and the Trumpet of God, the last trumpet of revelation as Paul has previously given us the remainder of the details in other verses as these. John, Jesus, and many others have also given more detail of this single event. Remember, God gives us different details of the same event throughout scripture, by other scriptures and varying personalities to shed all the details he wanted us to realize about a single event.
Notice Jesus is descending down to earth. We are caught up to meet him at His descent. The scriptures read the Lord shall descend. There is zero indication here that Jesus comes secretly, without notice to steal the church away to heaven, in order for them to escape persecution. There is zero detail given of any ascent as pretibulationism falsely claims there is. It is evident that He proceeds in a downward motion, with a shout, the voice ofthe archangel, and the last trumpet of Revelation. This all occurs at the end ofthe GT, not seven years earlier as pre-tribulationists falsely proclaim, loudly. This portion of scripture say nothing of where Jesus goes but it clearly depicts a descent and our apentesis with him; this very obviously means we are meeting him in the air as he descends in order to come down with Him and accompany him on the rest of His journey down. Paul has clearly told us this with the wording he has used. Jesus comes to rule and reign, not run away.
50Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. 51Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and thedead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality,
We see the same event in Revelation 11, 19, 20 etc.
HERE it is in Revelation 11 again
14The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.
15And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever. 16And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God, 17Saying, We give thee thanks, O LORD God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned. 18And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come,and the time ofthe dead,that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great;and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.
15For this we say unto you by the word ofthe Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming ofthe Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice ofthe archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 18Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
We will save verse 17 for last, as it is the best one that proves Jesus comes down to earth with the Greek word apentesis. I forgot to mention the word coming here is Parousia or arrival. So it is the same event we see in II Thes 1 and 2. We will see that very clearly in verse 15 the coming is "Parousia".
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Now we can bring this section to a conclusion with verse 17. This is exactly the same event we see in Mathew 24, Mark 13, Luke 21, II Thes 2, Revelation 10, 11, 19, 1, 20 etc. All the accounts are given to shed various details ofthe same event. Notice II Thes 2 mentions our gathering together unto him at his coming, arrival or Parousia. We see the same event described in a like fashion in I Thes 4. The pre-tribulationists claim they are two separated events, taking place at least seven years apart. We see nothing in scripture to demonstrate both are separate events; scripture only proves them to be one. Not only does the terminology prove them to be one event but the words also disprove any secret or hidden coming, and the words disprove Christ taking the church away. Finally the words disprove we fly away anywhere. Verse 17 proves these facts even further. Notice we will be caught up in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, as he descends. The word meet, is apentesis; it is no coincidence that Paul used this word here. Paul added this concept with its historical meaning. What this word means is as a dignitary paid his official visit to a city in Hellenistic times, the action ofthe leading citizens going out to meet the dignitary at his parousia, and escorting him in the remaining part or final stage of his Journey was referred to as the apentesis. So as they saw the dignitary arriving at his parousia, they went out to meet him and greet him, then the citizens would proceed to escort him in to the city. The same word is used here. As Jesus descends, we meet or apentesis him in the air in order to escort him down to earth. This is precisely what is recorded by Paul in scripture. We clearly do not fly away as the pre-tribulation dogma has eroneously has claimed; we meet Him the in air, in order to continue His descent with Him down to earth. There is nothing in scripture or this passage to disprove what Paul has clearly stated.
17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 18Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
More detail on the matter should you be interested...
No one saw Jesus come on the clouds of heaven. Not one church father witnessed that, not one historian, no not even one.
The kingdom did not come. In Romans 9-11 Paul details the setting aside of Israel and faith coming to the nations via a different channel.
If the kingdom did not come, How was it "at Hand", and what do you do with what Jesus said, "VERILY, I SAY UNTO YOU, THERE BE SOME STANDING HERE, WHICH SHALL NOT TASTE DEATH, TILL THEY SEE THE SON OF MAN COMING IN HIS KINGDOM." (Matt.16:28)
ARE YOU KIDDING ME Jesus said they would see the kingdom come before some tasted death, and you say the kingdom DID NOT COME
No one saw Jesus come on the clouds of heaven. Not one church father witnessed that, not one historian, no not even one.
The kingdom did not come. In Romans 9-11 Paul details the setting aside of Israel and faith coming to the nations via a different channel.
Behold he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, AND THEY ALSO WHICH PIERCED HIM...(Rev.1:7). They did see him come in the clouds. Clouds represent judgment. It is impossible for this to be in the future. ALL THE GENERATION THAT PIERCED HIM ARE DEAD
FOR YET A LITTLE WILE, AND HE THAT SHALL COME WILL COME, AND WILL NOT TARRY (Heb.10:37)
Christ has NOT TARRIED for TWO THOUSAND YEARS! He Came!!
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