Regarding the Pre-Tribulational Rapture (testament, eternity, Jews, Apostle)
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
For anyone interested in getting an understanding of the distinction between Israel as the 'wife of Jehovah', and the Church as 'the bride of Christ,' here you go.
This will go right over your head, but; one word of vocabulary saves a thousand words of explanation. The English word rapture, speaks of the event and concept that is revealed in passages such as 1 Thess. 4:11-17; 1 Corinthians 15:51-53; Phil 3:21; Titus 2:13; and John 14:1-3. Now you will ignore these, and without having any knowledge of the doctrines that are involved concerning the exit-resurrection of the Church, you will just continue to deny the reality of the blessed hope. It's your loss.
Your condemnation of C.I. Scofield speaks volumes.
Mike, the problem with today is that so many think the rapture was designed by God so that his people can escape the tribulation and hence it is the blessed hope. But the blessed hope is Christ in you the hope of glory - it is the resurrection hope - glorification with Christ at His return. There are only 2 resurrections not 3. The rapture is just the resurrection of those who happen to be alive when Christ returns - there is only 2 comings not 3. This is what I Thess.4 teaches as well as I Cor.15. This is why you error in calling it the exit-resurrection. Scofield was wrong. The Bible teaches no such thing - it is a contrived, inferrential doctrine based upon a presupposition that we must escape the Tribulation. There is no need to force Scripture to say there is 3 comings and 3 resurrections.
Matthew 13 concerning the tares and the wheat, is not about the rapture. At the rapture,believers are taken up off the earth, and unbelievers are left behind on the earth. At the second advent of Christ, at the end of the Tribulation, of which Matt.13 is referring to, it is the unbelievers who are taken off the earth and into Hades, and it is the believers who are left on the earth to go into the Millennial kingdom. It is known as the baptism of fire for the unbelievers who are cast into hades. These are two separate events. Research it.
2 Thessalonians 2 is stating that the apostasy-the falling away, must precede the second advent of Christ.
The rapture, the removal of the church, and with it, the restraining influence of the Holy Spirit is necessary before the antichrist can be revealed. That day, refers to the second advent which will not come until after the antichrist is revealed.
Here is the order of events:
(quote)
1) The working of the mystery of lawlessness under divine restraint which had already begun in the apostle's time (v.7) and which has been expanding throughout the Church Age. (2) The removal of that which restrains the mystery of lawlessness (vv.6-7. There are various views as to the identity of the restraining influence. The use of the masculine pronoun ''he'' indicates that it is a person. It seems evident that it is the Holy Spirit: (a) in the O.T. the Holy Spirit acts as a restrainer of iniquity (Gen. 6:3); (b) the restrainer is referred to by the use of both neuter and masculine genders (''what,'' v.6; ''he,'' v.7), as in Jn. 14:16-17; 16:12-13; concerning the coming of the Holy Spirit; and (c) it will be when the restrainer is ''taken out of the way'' that the man of sin will be revealed; this will be when the Church is translated and the Spirit's restraining ministry through it will cease. Observe, however, that it is not said that the restrainer will be ''taken away,'' but ''taken out of the way''; thus the Hoy Spirit will continue a divine activity to the end-time, though not as a restrainer of evil through the Church. (3) The manifestation of the lawless one, the man of sin, with the resulting apostasy (vv.3-4,8-10; Dan.7:8; 9:27; Mt.24:15; Rev.13:1-18). And (4) the return of Christ to the earth in glory, which will result in the overthrow of the man of sin and the establishment of the millennial kingdom (vv.8-10; Rev. 19:11-20:6).
(unquote)
(New Scofield Reference Bible, footnote for 2 Thess. 2:3; p.1294)
My very point!!! there is no pre-tribulation rapture and Matthew 13 describes when Jesus gathers his wheat which is at the END OF THE AGE at His second coming.
Who do you think the wheat and the tares are ??? No where does Jesus mention harvesting the wheat 2 different times.
Jesus makes it clear in what order the earth is harvested and the tares are gathered up before the wheat.
There is no pre-tribulation rapture because that would mean that the wheat is gathered up before the tares which is just the OPPOSITE of what Jesus taught.
Your Holy Spirit removal from the earth does not fly either.For people to be saved the Holy Spirit has to be involved in the process. John describes in Revelation that a number greater than he could count was saved during the great tribulation. [Revelation 7:9-17] This could not happen if the Holy Spirit was not present on the earth in His people.
2 Thess chapter 2 does not state who the restrainer is so one has to speculate to state they know who the restrainer is.Paul makes it clear that we[the church-this is who he is writing to] will not be gathered back to Christ until the son of perdition is revealed and sits in the temple of God showing himself to be God.Paul is describing the final antichrist here and also a reference to Isaiah 14 and the description of Lucifer.This happens during the great tribulation period and this must happen BEFORE we are gathered back to Christ.
The pre-tribulation doctrine is a FALSE DOCTRINE that misleads many people into looking for the first "jesus" that comes which is none other than satan himself as an impersonator of the REAL Jesus.[son of perdition setting in the temple of God showing himself to be God]
Mike, the problem with today is that so many think the rapture was designed by God so that his people can escape the tribulation and hence it is the blessed hope. But the blessed hope is Christ in you the hope of glory - it is the resurrection hope - glorification with Christ at His return. There are only 2 resurrections not 3. The rapture is just the resurrection of those who happen to be alive when Christ returns - there is only 2 comings not 3. This is what I Thess.4 teaches as well as I Cor.15. This is why you error in calling it the exit-resurrection. Scofield was wrong. The Bible teaches no such thing - it is a contrived, inferrential doctrine based upon a presupposition that we must escape the Tribulation. There is no need to force Scripture to say there is 3 comings and 3 resurrections.
Mike usually bails when backed in a corner so I have a question for you while you wait for him to respond.
I agree with you that the "rapture" is not so that some will escape for why would Jesus warn them to be diligent if they were just going to escape it.
However, as a post-tribber.. why is it that you can understand the timeline and see the error in Scofield.. etc. but are still under the impression that some lucky generation will be alive at the time of the Second Coming (not the 15th coming LOL) when the perfect generation for this to take place was the generation to which he speaks. I have a hard time dismissing that the ones who carried the word of God straight from Jesus' lips were not the "lucky" ones to see his second coming.
How do you reconcile this:
Hebrews 10:37 For in just a very little while, "He who is coming will come and will not delay.
Isn't it quite a delay to have had 75 or so generations pass since he died?
Ot prophets are told to seal up the prophecy for it is far in the future (400+ years) but in Revelation we see John is told NOT to seal up the prophecy because it is NEAR.. 2000 is near and 400 is far? That doesn't make much sense to me.
I went out with a Catholic girl for a few years, and the Catholics got the End Times all figured out...
I went out with a 7th Day Adventist for a year and the 7th Dayers got the End Times all figured out.
I worked with a JW for a few years, and oh yes, truth me, they got it all figured out...
I went to a non-denom church for a few years, and , yes you guessed it, they too had it all figured out.
I listened to TBN on Tv and found nothing but End Time preachers that had ever verse worked out.
So what I have learned for sure is:
That every End Time system has it all worked out.
There is no such thing as a hidden verse that one said can use to stump the other side.
Every teaching on the End Times, (no matter how different it is than your own views), has an answer for every bible verse you might try to use to prove them wrong...
and.....that with the use of Bible Math you can prove beyond doubt that the world will end on whatever date you want....
Mike usually bails when backed in a corner so I have a question for you while you wait for him to respond.
I agree with you that the "rapture" is not so that some will escape for why would Jesus warn them to be diligent if they were just going to escape it.
However, as a post-tribber.. why is it that you can understand the timeline and see the error in Scofield.. etc. but are still under the impression that some lucky generation will be alive at the time of the Second Coming (not the 15th coming LOL) when the perfect generation for this to take place was the generation to which he speaks. I have a hard time dismissing that the ones who carried the word of God straight from Jesus' lips were not the "lucky" ones to see his second coming.
How do you reconcile this:
Hebrews 10:37 For in just a very little while, "He who is coming will come and will not delay.
Isn't it quite a delay to have had 75 or so generations pass since he died?
Ot prophets are told to seal up the prophecy for it is far in the future (400+ years) but in Revelation we see John is told NOT to seal up the prophecy because it is NEAR.. 2000 is near and 400 is far? That doesn't make much sense to me.
The problem here is that you are looking at time with your perspective instead of God's timetable.
One day is as a 1000 years and a 1000 years is as 1 day to the Lord and the Lord is not slack concerning the promise of His return.
2 Peter 3:8-13
Understanding this concept means that Jesus was on the earth in the flesh body 2 days ago. This means the time is always near.
The problem here is that you are looking at time with your perspective instead of God's timetable.
One day is as a 1000 years and a 1000 years is as 1 day to the Lord and the Lord is not slack concerning the promise of His return.
2 Peter 3:8-13
Understanding this concept means that Jesus was on the earth in the flesh body 2 days ago. This means the time is always near.
Wasn't it God that tells both Ezekiel and John to seal or not seal? So when God says it is far off he means 400+ years but soon to him is 2000+?
You are saying that according to God there is a mathematical property.. The God property of time states.. 1 Day = 1000 years.. but don't you leave out the fact that Peter also says 1000 years = 1 day so the 1000 years in Revelation is really 1 day... Christ was really in the tomb for 3000 years to God... Do you see how you increase confusion by saying these things? Instead of what peter was trying to do which was reassure the people that God would come at the PERFECT time according to humans but according to God. He would harvest when the crop was ripe.. not before, nor after.
Furthermore.. you believe God says that 400+ years is really a short period when he says it is long, because 2000 is long when he says it is short.. Is God the author of confusion or is man the author of confusion?
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
