Jonathan Edwards' Resolutions

[Simple Living]

Originally Posted by ShanaBrown

I believe that many will experience hell, but not in the way that Jonathan Edwards describes it, that God hates and abhors those who are lost. God is described as love, not hate. If He did hate or abhor us, He would not have sent His Son to die for us. We would not have been taught to love our enemies and we believers were once His enemies... We were all lost at one time and Jesus gave His life for us because God loves us. This is not hate. I believe that many will experience hell, but I don't believe that it is an eternal condition. God bless.

People love the "God is love" part of who He is. It's very difficult for people to comprehend that God also hateYes, God hates. If He loves, then He also hates because it is the antithesis of love.

This usually comes from an incomplete understanding of the natures of God, man and sin. Understanding the nature of God isn't easy though, since man is in a fallen state.

God is love and mercy but He is first, and foremost, holy and righteous. That holiness means that He cannot tolerate sin. There are scriptures that tell us that His anger burns against the wicked and those who disobey Him. You'll find those in Isaiah 5:25, Zechariah 10:3 and Hosea 8:5.

He hates every kind of sin, according to Proverbs 6:16-19. Yes, God is merciful but there are limits to His mercy. (Isaiah 55:6-7)

When David sinned with Bathsheba and then had her husband Uriah killed, he prayed something interesting: “Against you, you only, have I sinned and done what is evil in your sight…” (Psalm 51:4). David understood that ultimately, all sin is committed against God (an infinite and eternal being) and thus, deserves eternal punishment.

Our sins, to us, are limited in time, but God is outside of time so His hatred of sin goes on and on... demanding punishment to satisfy is holy justice. So, our sin is continually before Him, demanding justiceWe're finite in our minds and "time" limits our comprehension of sin.

A perfect example is the story of the rich man and a beggar named Lazarus. Both died and the rich man went to hell while Lazarus went to heaven (called Abraham’s bosom in Luke 16). The rich man was aware that his sins were only committed during his lifetime. But interestingly, he never says: "How did I end up here?" That question is never asked in hell. He doesn't say, "Did I really deserve this?" "Don't you think this is a little extreme? A little over the top?" He doesn't say any of that. He only asks that someone go to his brothers who are still alive and warn them not to come there.

Every person is very aware of their own sins. That's why we're tormented over them. This is actually a small taste of what hell is like... constantly condemning ourselves and feeling pangs of guilt and torment. The rich man knew his eternal punishment was justified. That's why he didn't protest against it.

The reality of hell is frightening and horrifying and rightfully so! It's for a sinner's own good! But it's the love of God that provides the way out for us! A way to avoid this horrible end! He made the provision Himself when He sacrificed His only Son to take our place and fully pay the price once and for all for those who believe and accept Him as Lord and Savior in their lives. Because we were saved from SO MUCH, we want to please this loving and just God by reading and knowing His word, obeying it. We cannot please Him without obedience. The reward is an eternity with Him in heaven! But, those who reject His gift of eternal life will face the eternal consequences of that decision. Eternal hell.

[ShanaBrown]

People love the "God is love" part of who He is. It's very difficult for people to comprehend that God also hateYes, God hates. If He loves, then He also hates because it is the antithesis of love.

Since, this post was directed to me by the original poster. I will respond. Please realize that I do not have the intention of hijacking this thread , honestly! , just responding to the post. Simple Living, I never said that God doesn't hate I said that I don't believe that God hates/abhors the lost like Jonathan Edwards has stated in his sermon. Yes, God hates sin but not the sinner. If He hated the sinner, then why would Jesus have died for us?

This usually comes from an incomplete understanding of the natures of God, man and sin. Understanding the nature of God isn't easy though, since man is in a fallen state.

God is love and mercy but He is first, and foremost, holy and righteous. That holiness means that He cannot tolerate sin. There are scriptures that tell us that His anger burns against the wicked and those who disobey Him. You'll find those in Isaiah 5:25, Zechariah 10:3 and Hosea 8:5.

God who is said to be love, hates sin but we know that He loves the sinner, His enemy, because Jesus died for the enemies , the wicked. His anger burns against the wicked but yet Jesus walked, lived, and ate among the wicked. His anger burns against the wicked yet He loves the wicked and gave His Son for the wicked.

He hates every kind of sin, according to Proverbs 6:16-19. Yes, God is merciful but there are limits to His mercy. (Isaiah 55:6-7)

When David sinned with Bathsheba and then had her husband Uriah killed, he prayed something interesting: “Against you, you only, have I sinned and done what is evil in your sight…” (Psalm 51:4). David understood that ultimately, all sin is committed against God (an infinite and eternal being) and thus, deserves eternal punishment.

David sinned and did what was evil in God's sight. He understood that He had done wrong but I don't know that He understand this to be eternal punishement or eternal hell.

Our sins, to us, are limited in time, but God is outside of time so His hatred of sin goes on and on... demanding punishment to satisfy is holy justice. So, our sin is continually before Him, demanding justiceWe're finite in our minds and "time" limits our comprehension of sin.

I agree that God hates sin but I don't see God demanding eternal hell for our sins. The wages of sin is death, but death is to be abolished, rendered powerless one day. (1 Cor. 15) Jesus died for our sins and it was God's good pleasure to reconcile all to Himself. (Colossians 1) I don't believe that sin and sinners will exist and live forever in eternity. Not if Jesus came to destroy the works of satan. (1 John 3:8)

A perfect example is the story of the rich man and a beggar named Lazarus. Both died and the rich man went to hell while Lazarus went to heaven (called Abraham’s bosom in Luke 16). The rich man was aware that his sins were only committed during his lifetime. But interestingly, he never says: "How did I end up here?" That question is never asked in hell. He doesn't say, "Did I really deserve this?" "Don't you think this is a little extreme? A little over the top?" He doesn't say any of that. He only asks that someone go to his brothers who are still alive and warn them not to come there.

I don't see that the punishment is eternal hell in this parable, Simple Living.

Every person is very aware of their own sins. That's why we're tormented over them. This is actually a small taste of what hell is like... constantly condemning ourselves and feeling pangs of guilt and torment. The rich man knew his eternal punishment was justified. That's why he didn't protest against it.

Again, I don't know that he understood that this punishment was eternal. Yes we feel torment over our sins. I believe that all will be made to realize the consequences of their sins and realize their need for a Savior, Jesus Christ. And I believe that this torment will be instrumental in subjecting all to God so that He will be all in all.

The reality of hell is frightening and horrifying and rightfully so! It's for a sinner's own good! But it's the love of God that provides the way out for us! A way to avoid this horrible end! He made the provision Himself when He sacrificed His only Son to take our place and fully pay the price once and for all for those who believe and accept Him as Lord and Savior in their lives. Because we were saved from SO MUCH, we want to please this loving and just God by reading and knowing His word, obeying it. We cannot please Him without obedience. The reward is an eternity with Him in heaven! But, those who reject His gift of eternal life will face the eternal consequences of that decision. Eternal hell

.

Again, I disagree that this punishment is eternal hell. I don't see this presented in the scriptures. I believe that many who fear God and eternal hell come to Him for fire insurance instead of realizing that Jesus came to save us from our sins. God bless.

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[Simple Living]

Originally Posted by ShanaBrown

Since, this post was directed to me by the original poster. I will respond. Please realize that I do not have the intention of hijacking this thread , honestly! , just responding to the post. Simple Living, I never said that God doesn't hate I said that I don't believe that God hates/abhors the lost like Jonathan Edwards has stated in his sermon. Yes, God hates sin but not the sinner. If He hated the sinner, then why would Jesus have died for us?

To be more precise, my post was directed more at what was being said, not to you or anyone specifically. I quoted your post because it was the last in a line of posts that disagreed with eternal hell and punishment. I didn't intend to aim at you, directly...

God who is said to be love, hates sin but we know that He loves the sinner, His enemy, because Jesus died for the enemies , the wicked. His anger burns against the wicked but yet Jesus walked, lived, and ate among the wicked. His anger burns against the wicked yet He loves the wicked and gave His Son for the wicked.

There are scriptures that indicate that God does hate certain people. The one off the top of my head is, “ Yet Jacob I have loved; but Esau I have hated, and laid waste his mountains and his heritage for the jackals of the wilderness” (Malachi 1:2b-3.)

EDITED TO ADD: God hates sin, yes. But what else is in a sinner except for sin? There is no such thing as a carnal Christian and a true Christian is a regenerated Christian who no longer lives habitually in their sin. Isaiah 1 plays out like a courtroom scene where God is the plaintiff and Israel is the defendant. He's accusing them of their evils and in verse five (and in other scriptures) that when the head (or foot) is sick, the whole body is sick.

David sinned and did what was evil in God's sight. He understood that He had done wrong but I don't know that He understand this to be eternal punishement or eternal hell.

David knew God to be an eternal, infinite Being. He understood that God's wrath is eternal, too. He knew that, without repentance, so would his punishment be eternal.

I agree that God hates sin but I don't see God demanding eternal hell for our sins. The wages of sin is death, but death is to be abolished, rendered powerless one day. (1 Cor. 15)

True. Death will be abolished. But that has nothing to do with eternal damnation because there will be no death on either side of eternity, in heaven or in hell.

Jesus died for our sins and it was God's good pleasure to reconcile all to Himself. (Colossians 1)

True. God's love and mercy provided payment in full for the price we could never have paid, because, as He Himself said, the alternative was eternity in hell. One has to look at the full words of what God said and not just in part.

I don't believe that sin and sinners will exist and live forever in eternity. Not if Jesus came to destroy the works of satan. (1 John 3:8)

Hell isn't a work of Satan. God created hell for Satan and his followers. And, if someone isn't following God, they're following Satan. In the scripture you provided, 1 John 3:8, "He who sins" is referring to those who live in habitual sin. In this verse, Jesus said that those who practice habitual sin are of the devil. Hell was created for the devil and his followers.

I don't see that the punishment is eternal hell in this parable, Simple Living.

It is widely agreed upon by many Bible scholars that the account of Lazarus and the rich man is not a parable at all, but a real event. In no other story, or parable, did Jesus give names to the characters in his parables. I am of the belief, with these Bible teachers, that this is a true account. Even if this was a mere parable, Jesus gave a picture of Hades (the place where the wicked go before the final judgment) is a place where the unspeakable torment of hell had already begun. Among their miseries there are unquenchable flames, an accusing conscience fed by undying memories of lost opportunities, and permanent, irreversible separation from God and everything good.

Again, I don't know that he understood that this punishment was eternal. Yes we feel torment over our sins. I believe that all will be made to realize the consequences of their sins and realize their need for a Savior, Jesus Christ. And I believe that this torment will be instrumental in subjecting all to God so that He will be all in all.

May I ask what you base the above part in bold on? I'd like to understand where you're coming from with that.

Again, I disagree that this punishment is eternal hell. I don't see this presented in the scriptures. I believe that many who fear God and eternal hell come to Him for fire insurance instead of realizing that Jesus came to save us from our sins. God bless.

I have already given verses that show hell exists and that it's eternal. This is where we'll have to agree to disagree. As for people coming to God as "fire insurance," you are absolutely correct! There are people who make their decision based on that assumption. Sadly, if they make that "decision" and then carry on to live in their sinful ways, they'll hear what Matthew 25:41-46 says. Here, God has just finished speaking to the righteous, who live for Him and obeyed His commands. Then, He turns to the other group, that didn't but think they did, and says:

"Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.'

44"They also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?'

45"He will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.'

46"Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."

This passage clearly talks about people who lived their lives on the earth, not angels and demons. Those with "fire insurance," who continued their lives of habitual sin, are in this number because their decision wasn't for HIM, but what they thought was a "loophole" for THEMSELVES.

[ShanaBrown]

Originally Posted by ShanaBrown
Since, this post was directed to me by the original poster. I will respond. Please realize that I do not have the intention of hijacking this thread , honestly! , just responding to the post. Simple Living, I never said that God doesn't hate I said that I don't believe that God hates/abhors the lost like Jonathan Edwards has stated in his sermon. Yes, God hates sin but not the sinner. If He hated the sinner, then why would Jesus have died for us?

To be more precise, my post was directed more at what was being said, not to you or anyone specifically. I quoted your post because it was the last in a line of posts that disagreed with eternal hell and punishment. I didn't intend to aim at you, directly...

Okay, Simple Living. I just saw my post at the top and just wanted to clarify that I was responding to statements made to this and to clarify that I wasn't attempting to hijack this thread!


Quote:
God who is said to be love, hates sin but we know that He loves the sinner, His enemy, because Jesus died for the enemies , the wicked. His anger burns against the wicked but yet Jesus walked, lived, and ate among the wicked. His anger burns against the wicked yet He loves the wicked and gave His Son for the wicked.

There are scriptures that indicate that God does hate certain people. The one off the top of my head is, “ Yet Jacob I have loved; but Esau I have hated, and laid waste his mountains and his heritage for the jackals of the wilderness” (Malachi 1:2b-3.)

The word for "hate" in this passage is "sane" and its meaning ranges from "intense hatred" to "simple opposition" (Key Word Study Bible). The point I was trying to make is that even though God may be against wicked, evil persons, His enemies, He still loves them and sent His Son to die for them.


Quote:
David sinned and did what was evil in God's sight. He understood that He had done wrong but I don't know that He understand this to be eternal punishement or eternal hell.

David knew God to be an eternal, infinite Being. He understood that God's wrath is eternal, too. He knew that, without repentance, so would his punishment be eternal.

Again, I don't see that David understood that this punishment would be an eternal hell.


Quote:
I agree that God hates sin but I don't see God demanding eternal hell for our sins. The wages of sin is death, but death is to be abolished, rendered powerless one day. (1 Cor. 15)

True. Death will be abolished. But that has nothing to do with eternal damnation because there will be no death on either side of eternity, in heaven or in hell.

The wages of sin are said to be "death" and death, which is described as the last enemy will be abolished, made of no effect, rendered powerless. (Romans 6:23, 1 Cor. 15:26)

Quote:
Jesus died for our sins and it was God's good pleasure to reconcile all to Himself. (Colossians 1)

True. God's love and mercy provided payment in full for the price we could never have paid, because, as He Himself said, the alternative was eternity in hell. One has to look at the full words of what God said and not just in part

.

I agree that we have to look at the full words of what God said and not part of it. I don't see that eternal hell is part of God's word. I believe that it eternal hell was the penalty, Jesus would be in hell for all of eternity since He paid the price. But Jesus died. He did not to to an eternal hell and He rose again. I do see that many will experience punishment, God's wrath, torment, exclusion but I don't see that it is an eternal situation.


Quote:
I don't believe that sin and sinners will exist and live forever in eternity. Not if Jesus came to destroy the works of satan. (1 John 3:8)

Hell isn't a work of Satan. God created hell for Satan and his followers. And, if someone isn't following God, they're following Satan. In the scripture you provided, 1 John 3:8, "He who sins" is referring to those who live in habitual sin. In this verse, Jesus said that those who practice habitual sin are of the devil. Hell was created for the devil and his followers.

Yes, if someone is not following Jesus, they are following satan. The scriptures teach that he is the god of this age, holds individuals captive, deceives, blinds, influences people to sin, and so I believe that these works fo satan will be dissolved, destroyed by the Lord Jesus Christ. When this happens there will be no one in an eternal hell separated from the Creator due to the inluence, power of satan. Jesus has been made heir of all things (Hebrews 1)


Quote:
I don't see that the punishment is eternal hell in this parable, Simple Living.

It is widely agreed upon by many Bible scholars that the account of Lazarus and the rich man is not a parable at all, but a real event. In no other story, or parable, did Jesus give names to the characters in his parables. I am of the belief, with these Bible teachers, that this is a true account. Even if this was a mere parable, Jesus gave a picture of Hades (the place where the wicked go before the final judgment) is a place where the unspeakable torment of hell had already begun. Among their miseries there are unquenchable flames, an accusing conscience fed by undying memories of lost opportunities, and permanent, irreversible separation from God and everything good.

Bible scholars, teachers disagree with this. Many believe that it is a parable based on some of the characteristics which are similar to the parables of Jesus. Whether we believe it is a parable or not, I do not see that the condition is eternal. An unquenchable fire is one that did not go out until it had fulfilled its purpose.

Quote:
Again, I don't know that he understood that this punishment was eternal. Yes we feel torment over our sins. I believe that all will be made to realize the consequences of their sins and realize their need for a Savior, Jesus Christ. And I believe that this torment will be instrumental in subjecting all to God so that He will be all in all.

May I ask what you base the above part in bold on? I'd like to understand where you're coming from with that.

I believe that 1 Cor. 15 for example teaches that all will be subjected to God so that God may be all in all. I believe that this will involve experiencing God's wrath, chastisment, tribulation, distress, testing, exclusion, (Ref: Romans 2:9, Luke 12, Matthew 25:25 (aionion punishment/chastisement (kolasis)-punishment for correction or betterment) I"Basanizo" for distress =to test by rubbing on touchstone, to vex, torment. But Isaiah 45 speaks of a time when all will come to Him, every knee will bow, every tongue confess, take an oath, swear allegiance. All will confess, give thanks, glorify Him (Romans 14:11, Philippians 2:9-11) And Romans 8 speaks of expectation of the deliverance of the creation. What is excluded from the creation? So I believe that whatever torment, pain, anguish that is experienced in the judgments of God will eventually lead to the returning of all to God, to the reconciliation of all to God.
Quote:
Again, I disagree that this punishment is eternal hell. I don't see this presented in the scriptures. I believe that many who fear God and eternal hell come to Him for fire insurance instead of realizing that Jesus came to save us from our sins. God bless.

I have already given verses that show hell exists and that it's eternal. This is where we'll have to agree to disagree.

We disagree on words that have been translated as "eternal" in some translations, Simple Living. We will have to agree to disagree on this one.

As

for people coming to God as "fire insurance," you are absolutely correct! There are people who make their decision based on that assumption. Sadly, if they make that "decision" and then carry on to live in their sinful ways, they'll hear what Matthew 25:41-46 says. Here, God has just finished speaking to the righteous, who live for Him and obeyed His commands. Then, He turns to the other group, that didn't but think they did, and says:

"Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.'

44"They also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?'

45"He will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.'

46"Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."

This passage clearly talks about people who lived their lives on the earth, not angels and demons. Those with "fire insurance," who continued their lives of habitual sin, are in this number because their decision wasn't for HIM, but what they thought was a "loophole" for THEMSELVES.

I don't know that all come to him for fire insurance continue to live lives of habitual sin, Simple Living but some may. All Bibles do not have this same translation of the passage, Simple Living. I will post some. Thanks for the discussion and God bless.

40. `And the king answering, shall say to them, Verily I say to you, Inasmuch as ye did [it] to one of these my brethren -- the least -- to me ye did [it].41. Then shall he say also to those on the left hand, Go ye from me, the cursed, to the fire, the age-during, that hath been prepared for the Devil and his messengers;42. for I did hunger, and ye gave me not to eat; I did thirst, and ye gave me not to drink;43. a stranger I was, and ye did not receive me; naked, and ye put not around me; infirm, and in prison, and ye did not look after me.44. `Then shall they answer, they also, saying, Lord, when did we see thee hungering, or thirsting, or a stranger, or naked, or infirm, or in prison, and we did not minister to thee?45. `Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say to you, Inasmuch as ye did [it] not to one of these, the least, ye did [it] not to me.46. And these shall go away to punishment age-during, but the righteous to life age-during.' (Young's Literal)


King James Version, 1611 spelled as in the original
1. And these shall goe away into euerlasting punishment : but the righteous into life eternall


Note: This version had thousands of differences in two printings within the same year.

The Newberry Reference Bible, 1893
1. And these shall_go_away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal




Emphatic Diaglott, 1942 edition (Greek\English Interlinear)
1. And these shall go forth to the aionian 1cutting-off; but the RIGHTEOUS to aionian Life




New Testament in Modern Speech, 1910
1. And these shall go away into the Punishment 1of the Ages, but the righteous into the Life* of the Ages.[/SIZE]


The Restoration of Original Sacred Name Bible, 1976
1. And these shall go away into age-abiding *correction, but the righteous into **age-abiding life




The New Testament of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Anointed, 1958
1. And these shall go away into agelasting cutting-off and the just into agelasting life


The Western New Testament, 1926
1. And these will go away into eternal punishment,* but the righteous into life eternal
2. And the devil, who deceiveth them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where are also the wild beast and the false prophet; and they will be tormented day and night for evermore.
[Footnote: Or chastisement (I S. John iv.18). Ref. on word “forever” in Matthew 21:19-literally “for the age"


Concordant Literal New Testament, 1983
1. And these shall be coming away into chastening eonian, yet the just into life eonian


Rotherham Emphasized Bible, 1959
1. And these shall go away into age-abiding correction, but the righteous into age-abiding life.



The Companion Bible,1990 A King James Reference Bible
1. And these shall go away into everlasting punishment : but the righteous into life eternal
2. And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever

Many reference in this Bible that Aion which means "age." Aionios-"of or belonging to an age."

[Simple Living]

Shanna,

Thank you for the time you spent laying out your thoughts. Unfortunately, I don't know what more can be said by me. We clearly disagree, which boils down to the fact that you are a Universalist and I am not. I assume that because you were answering in the thread asking questions to Universalists and your views line up with much of what they believe. Are you a Unitarian Universalist?

The Unitarian Universalist name comes from their denial of the doctrine of the Trinity and their belief that all human beings gain salvation. The mere idea someone might go to hell is not compatible with the character of a loving God. Does this describe your views? I ask because Universalism and Unitarianism merged about three centuries ago.

[ShanaBrown]

Hi Simple Living, I am not a Unitarian Universalist. From what I understand, they believe that all roads lead to God. I am a Christian Universalist and believe that salvation is through Jesus Christ, that He is the Way, the Truth, and the Life. My belief is based in the scriptures. There are many Christian Universalists who are not Unitarians. Some Christian Universalists hold to the Trinity and some do not. Take care and God bless.

[Simple Living]

I must admit, I'm happy to hear that you aren't Unitarian in any way and that you do acknowledge Jesus as THE way to the Father.

Universalism, as I've read, is of the belief that everyone will eventually end up in heaven with the Lord. Is this a fair statement?

[ShanaBrown]

Christian Universalism is the belief that all mankind will be restored to God through Jesus. I do not believe in an eternal hell or in annihilationism, or that anyone will remain lost for eternity. I believe that God will be successful in reconciling all people to Himself through Jesus. Here are some statements of Christian Universalist beliefs. Hope this helps, Simple Living

Christian Universalist Beliefs

Christian Universalism: Doctrine, Principles, Profession of Faith




God bless.

[Simple Living]

Thank you for the clarification. That only leaves two more questions for me.

1. How do you reconcile all of the scriptures about hell and eternal damnation, like the ones I quoted above?

2. If everyone will be reconciled to God, why should anyone follow Jesus now instead of living for themselves and cheating and doing whatever they want to right now? Don't you think that abuses grace and tests God?

Because these things can't be avoided in scriptures, that would leave me to think that you don't believe the Bible is God's Word.

[ShanaBrown]

Hi Simple Living, as I shared earlier:

I believe that 1 Cor. 15 for example teaches that all will be subjected to God so that God may be all in all. I believe that this will involve experiencing God's wrath, chastisment, tribulation, distress, testing, exclusion, (Ref: Romans 2:9, Luke 12, Matthew 25:25 (aionion punishment/chastisement (kolasis)-punishment for correction or betterment) I"Basanizo" for distress =to test by rubbing on touchstone, to vex, torment. But Isaiah 45 speaks of a time when all will come to Him, every knee will bow, every tongue confess, take an oath, swear allegiance. All will confess, give thanks, glorify Him (Romans 14:11, Philippians 2:9-11) And Romans 8 speaks of expectation of the deliverance of the creation. What is excluded from the creation? So I believe that whatever torment, pain, anguish that is experienced in the judgments of God will eventually lead to the returning of all to God, to the reconciliation of all to God

I believe that the words aion/aionios translated as eternity, eternal in some translations means "of or relating to an age (s), for the age (s), age lasting". This is where the big disagreement comes in. Please see example verses above.


What does the phrase, “unquenchable fire” mean and how was it used in the scriptures and in the day?

References

Quote:
Josephus says, [Jewish War, B. ii, ch. xvii:6.] speaking of a fire that used to burn in the temple--though at the time he wrote [A.D.80] it had gone out, and the temple was destroyed--"Every one was accustomed to bring wood for the altar, that fuel might never be needed for the fire, for it continued always unquenchable."
Strabo, [A.D. 70} described the "unquenchable lamp" that used to burn in the Parthenon, though it has long since ceased to burn. [Lib. ix: p. 606.]
Plutarch, {A.D. 110} in Numa, [p. 262] speaks of places in Delphi and Athens, "where there is a fire unquenchable," (asbeston) though in the same breath he describes it as having ceased to burn.

Jesus - the Light of the World - Message Board - ezboard.com

Ezekiel 20:47, for example, speaks of a fire that was to be kindled and not quenched in Negev but this fire is not burning today. Leviticus 6:12 speaks of a fire on an altar that was to never go out but it is not burning today. An unquenchable fire is one that does not go out until purpose is fulfilled.

I believe that God is calling out a group of people today, believers, who are the first fruits in the process of reconciling all to Himself. Believers are to be God's chosen people, His lights in the world, turning away from sin and living for Jesus. We live for Jesus because of what He did for us and we turn away from sin because it is wrong. We are supposed to be the people of God. Romans 8 speaks of the hope/expectation for the creation/creature.


Romans 8:18-22
18. For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory that is to be revealed to us.19. For the anxious longing of the creation/creature waits eagerly for the revealing of the sons of God.20. For the creation/creature was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope21. that the creation/creature itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God.22. For we know that the whole creation groans and suffers the pains of childbirth together until now.



The belief in eventual restoration of all does not mean that people should remain in sin, live for themselves, do whatever they want to do now. God is subjecting all to Himself so that He may be all in all. (1 Cor. 15) All are not subjected at the same time.

I do believe that the Bible is God's word. We understand it differently on this subject. Thanks and God bless.