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“Of all the arguments on this question, the one which appears to me the most absolutely and hopelessly futile, is the one in which so many seem to rest with entire content; viz. that "eternal or aeonian life" must mean endless life, and therefore that “aeonian chastisement” must mean “endless chastisement.”
This battered and aged argument, . . . if it had possessed a particle of cogency, would not have been set aside as entirely valueless by such minds as those of Origen and the two Gregories in ancient days, nor by multitudes in the days of St. Augustine and St. Jerome, nor by the most brilliant thinker among the schoolmen, nor by many of our greatest living divines . . . .
No proposition is capable of more simple proof than that aeonian is not a synonym of endless. It only means, or can mean, in its primary sense, pertaining to an aeon, and therefore “indefinite,” since an aeon may be either long or short; and in its secondary sense “spiritual,” “pertaining to the unseen world,” “an attribute of that which is above and beyond time,” an attribute expressive not of duration but of quality.
Can such an explanation of the word be denied by any competent or thoughtful reader of John 5:39; 6:54; 17:3; 1 John 5:13,20? Would not the introduction of the word “endless” into those Divine utterances be an unspeakable degradation of their meaning?
And as for the argument that the redeemed would thus lose their promised bliss, it is at once so unscriptural and so selfish that, after what Mr. Cox and others have said of it, one may hope that no one will ever be able to use it again without a blush.
I cannot here diverge into a discussion with Bishop Wordsworth and Canon Ryle, whose sermons need some adversaria rather longer than I can here devote to them; but as they both dwell on the fact that people who spoke Greek interpreted aionios to mean endless, I reply that some of the greatest masters of Greek, both in classical times and among the Fathers, saw quite clearly that, though the word might connote endlessness by being attributively added to endless things, it had in itself no such meaning.
I cannot conceive how any candid mind can deny the force of these considerations. If even Origenists would freely speak of future punishment as aionios but never as ateleutetos [without end] –– if, as even these papers have shown, Plato uses the word as the antithesis of endlessness –– if St. Gregory of Nyssa uses it as the epithet of “an interval”–– if, as though to leave this Augustinian argument without the faintest shadow of a foundation, there are absolutely two passages of Scripture (Hab.3:6 and Rom.16:25,26) where the very word occurs in two consecutive clauses, and is, in the second of the two clauses, applied to God, and yet is, in the first of the two clauses, applied to things which are temporary or terminated –– what shall be said of disputants who still enlist the controversial services of a phantom which has been so often laid in the tomb from which it ought never again to emerge? How is it that not one out of the scores of writers who have animadverted on my book have so much as noticed the very remarkable fact to which I have called attention, that those who followed Origen in holding out a possible hope beyond the grave founded their argument for the terminability of torments on the acknowledged sense of this very word, and on the fact that other words and phrases which do unmistakably mean endless are used of the duration of good, but are never used of the duration of evil?”
Oh good grief. The word kolasis is not restricted to corrective discipline.
This statement contradicts literally EVERY reference guide that I have ever used to find the meaning of the word. I've lost count of how many times I have checked it.
If we interpret it your way, all I can say is that I hope everyone on this thread does jail ministry. You're all in for a world of hurt if you don't.
You are correct, aionion points to that which is limited in duration, and kolasis points to that of corrective discipline rather than retributive punishment.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555
Oh good grief. The word kolasis is not restricted to corrective discipline. This is easily shown in 2 Maccabees 4:38 where the word kolasis is used regarding a murderer who is put to death as punishment. How is executing a murderer corrective discipline?
2 Maccabees 4:38
38 And being kindled with anger, forthwith he took away Andronicus his purple, and rent off his clothes, and leading him through the whole city unto that very place, where he had committed impiety against Onias, there slew he the cursed murderer. Thus the Lord rewarded him his punishment, as he had deserved.
To be clear, executing a murderer is not corrective discipline. The word kolasis is used with regard to the punishment of execution of a murderer in 2 Maccabees 4:38.
And it has already been shown in post #185 that the word aionion in certain contexts refers to unlimited duration.
The death penalty hasn’t really been an effective deterrent for murder, although it may be proportional to the offense in the sense of what you sow, you reap. However, if you want to, you can build an altar for the Greek pagan gods that you are so hard pressed to worship? But it has nothing to do with any kind of truth or that of reality for that matter. You might also want to consider that revenge involves a desire to see the wrongdoer suffer. And none of what you quoted has anything to do with the ideology of eternal punishment, as it does not exist in the Greek New Testament, and contrary to your opinion, not even Jesus used those terms in conjunction with one-another.
Another important principle (tenet) that you might want to consider is that of the Protestant Reformation, which states: "scriptural translations should be derived from the original Hebrew and Aramaic texts for the Old Testament and Greek for the New Testament, rather than upon the Septuagint and Jerome's Latin Vulgate." And of the four books of the Maccabees, none are in the Hebrew Bible, although all do appear in some of the manuscripts of the Septuagint. They were considered to be Apocrypha or deuterocanonical and were not placed on the same level as other documents. In other words, it’s not really a reliable source in my humble opinion. And I have no doubt that they erred in their translations. However, you do like to draw on them in order to support your beliefs of eternal damnation, even though they are not what you refer to as being canonized. The Septuagint has been passionately called "Egypt's greatest gift to Western civilization?"
Apparently, whatever suits your agenda to propagate the false teachings of eternal punishment (from the Greeks and Egyptians) is fair game, which anyone with a good moral center would not even remotely consider.
Dear Mike: Rosey refuses to allow your youth and inexperience to dominate you. Your at home crash course in koine is to be applauded and post #185.
You have declared you "are done" with us but you know you cannot resist us.
In coming posts real scholars of koine & Hebrew will give us the meaning of aionios and aidios and olam, the foundation for aionios. Enjoy!
Canon F.W. Farrar: “Aeonian”
“Of all the arguments on this question, the one which appears to me the most absolutely and hopelessly futile, is the one in which so many seem to rest with entire content; viz. that "eternal or aeonian life" must mean endless life, and therefore that “aeonian chastisement” must mean “endless chastisement.”
This battered and aged argument, . . . if it had possessed a particle of cogency, would not have been set aside as entirely valueless by such minds as those of Origen and the two Gregories in ancient days, nor by multitudes in the days of St. Augustine and St. Jerome, nor by the most brilliant thinker among the schoolmen, nor by many of our greatest living divines . . . .
No proposition is capable of more simple proof than that aeonian is not a synonym of endless. It only means, or can mean, in its primary sense, pertaining to an aeon, and therefore “indefinite,” since an aeon may be either long or short; and in its secondary sense “spiritual,” “pertaining to the unseen world,” “an attribute of that which is above and beyond time,” an attribute expressive not of duration but of quality.
Can such an explanation of the word be denied by any competent or thoughtful reader of John 5:39; 6:54; 17:3; 1 John 5:13,20? Would not the introduction of the word “endless” into those Divine utterances be an unspeakable degradation of their meaning?
And as for the argument that the redeemed would thus lose their promised bliss, it is at once so unscriptural and so selfish that, after what Mr. Cox and others have said of it, one may hope that no one will ever be able to use it again without a blush.
I cannot here diverge into a discussion with Bishop Wordsworth and Canon Ryle, whose sermons need some adversaria rather longer than I can here devote to them; but as they both dwell on the fact that people who spoke Greek interpreted aionios to mean endless, I reply that some of the greatest masters of Greek, both in classical times and among the Fathers, saw quite clearly that, though the word might connote endlessness by being attributively added to endless things, it had in itself no such meaning.
I cannot conceive how any candid mind can deny the force of these considerations. If even Origenists would freely speak of future punishment as aionios but never as ateleutetos [without end] –– if, as even these papers have shown, Plato uses the word as the antithesis of endlessness –– if St. Gregory of Nyssa uses it as the epithet of “an interval”–– if, as though to leave this Augustinian argument without the faintest shadow of a foundation, there are absolutely two passages of Scripture (Hab.3:6 and Rom.16:25,26) where the very word occurs in two consecutive clauses, and is, in the second of the two clauses, applied to God, and yet is, in the first of the two clauses, applied to things which are temporary or terminated –– what shall be said of disputants who still enlist the controversial services of a phantom which has been so often laid in the tomb from which it ought never again to emerge? How is it that not one out of the scores of writers who have animadverted on my book have so much as noticed the very remarkable fact to which I have called attention, that those who followed Origen in holding out a possible hope beyond the grave founded their argument for the terminability of torments on the acknowledged sense of this very word, and on the fact that other words and phrases which do unmistakably mean endless are used of the duration of good, but are never used of the duration of evil?”
This statement contradicts literally EVERY reference guide that I have ever used to find the meaning of the word. I've lost count of how many times I have checked it.
If we interpret it your way, all I can say is that I hope everyone on this thread does jail ministry. You're all in for a world of hurt if you don't.
Despite your reference guides, 2 Maccabees 4:38 clearly uses the word kolasis with regard to a murderer being put to death for having murdered a person. And there is nothing remedial about capital punishment.
You can read can't you? You can comprehend can't you? Then read it and comprehend it. Here. I'll post it again. Originally posted in post #210.
2 Maccabees 4:38
38 And being kindled with anger, forthwith he took away Andronicus his purple, and rent off his clothes, and leading him through the whole city unto that very place, where he had committed impiety against Onias, there slew he the cursed murderer. Thus the Lord rewarded him his punishment, as he had deserved.
Executing a murderer is not corrective discipline. The word kolasis is used with regard to the punishment of execution of a murderer in 2 Maccabees 4:38.
Are you going to deny what you can read with your own eyes? This is an ancient non-biblical text using the word Kolasis for retributive justice. Not for remedial purposes.
And by the way, I was pointed to 2 Maccabees 4:38 by BDAG - A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and other Early Christian Liturature by Arndt, Gingrich, and Danker which is perhaps the top Greek Lexicon available.
It includes in its entry for kolasis - 2. transcendent retribution, punishment.
Last edited by Michael Way; 01-17-2019 at 07:37 AM..
Everlasting punishment for the sake of correction is contradictory and nonsensical. It makes absolutely no difference what the phrase "eternal life" means. It could mean forever, or it could mean one day or one millisecond. None of that changes the absurdity of "everlasting punishment for the sake of correction."
And, are you saying that if my parents were more Godly then they would be more cruel and sadistic?
Does it not seem strange to you that we preach that God is full of grace, mercy, and forgiveness while your flesh is alive, then what? After your flesh dies, God's nature suddenly changes to unforgiving and vengeful? Sorry. Times up. God is cruel and sadistic now.
But aren’t the words the same meaning?
No, I’m saying God is holy, pure. We are not, outside of Jesus. Therefore, we are separated from God, in our sinful state.
After this life, justice is served.
Hebrews 9:27
And just as it is appointed for man to die once, and after that comes judgment.
No, I’m saying God is holy, pure. We are not, outside of Jesus. Therefore, we are separated from God, in our sinful state.
After this life, justice is served.
Hebrews 9:27
And just as it is appointed for man to die once, and after that comes judgment.
Yep there's judgment. You'll face a mirror that refuses to lie and you'll be unable to look away or blink. You will see the truth of you and I predict you will then know the meaning of unutterable shame.
i hope you are not following in the footseps of that jesus. John the baptist could not be anything other than how anyone under the law could have been. Jesus christ, not john the baptist(he's a state we all pass through) is our our example, but also all things to us.
and so ARE YOU saying that you have passed through THAT BAD Jesus phase AND ALREADY HEALED THE DEMONIACS AND ALL THE PARAPLEGICS ALREADY? HumSO WHERE HAVE YOU BEEN ALL OUR LIVE'S?
AND SO NOW YOU HAVE MOVED PASS HIM INTO WHAT A MORE PERFECT "LOVE" THEN THAT BAD JESUS HAD? .. BUT CAN I GUESS NO ONE IS SET FREE AND NO ONE IS HEALED AND NO ONE IS IN ANYWAY " SAVED" FROM ANYTHING ? ?
WHICH SURE DON'T LOOK LIKE MY DADDY OR BAD JESUS EITHER !
PS
Jhn 8:32
And you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.”
Jhn 8:33
¶
“But we are descendants of Abraham,” they said. “We have never been slaves to anyone. What do you mean, ‘You will be set free’?”
Jhn 8:34
¶
Jesus replied, “I tell you the truth, everyone who sins is a slave of sin.
Jhn 8:35
A slave is not a permanent member of the family, but a son is part of the family forever.
Jhn 8:36
So if the Son sets you free, you are truly free.
AT THE VERY LEAST WE SHOULD SPEAK HIS WORD, WHICH IS TRUTH AND THAT TRUTH WILL SET PEOPLE FREE FROM THE SLAVERY TO SIN.
BUT THE TRUTH ALSO OFFENDS ....( DRUM ROLL)........SIN ! IN THE SOUL OF A SLAVE !
The Greek word, and the messianic idea it attempts to represent, are focused on condition or character, not time or length of time. In focus is a new age that is different from the current age, in kind and quality. The focus is not on how long in terms of time sequence.
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