Christianity and Islam discussions , Islamic views regarding Christianity (Pentateuch, tradition, testimony)
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This is an open thread to everyone to discuss Islam or Christianity to find the truth , Also I posted this thread applying to what Mr5150 asked me to do, anyone is welcome to ask me questions why ISLAM is true .. because it is the closest religion to Christianity ...
Thanks for asking , You did not specify your question whether you are talking about the punishment or the definition and you didn't say Islam or Christianity however, I will answer both ..
first in Islam :
Apostates or Renegades are those who decide to leave the religion of Islam. There is a widely prevailing misconception about this issue. It is generally thought that the Holy Quran (The Muslims Holy Scripture) provides the death sentence for those who desert the religion of Islam. There is not the least ground for such a supposition. The Holy Quran speaks repeatedly of people going back to unbelief after believing, but never once does it say that they should be killed or punished. Although the Holy Quran does provide the death sentence for some situations such as putting a murderer to death, but it never provided death sentence or ordered the death of those who leave Islam.
Let me give you EVIDENCES from the Holy Qur'an :
Noble Verse 2:217 "They ask thee (Mohammed) Concerning fighting In the Prohibited Month. Say: Fighting therein Is a grave (offence); but graver is it In the sight of Allah to prevent access to the path of Allah, to deny Him, to prevent access to the sacred Mosque, and drive out its members. Tumult and oppression are worse than slaughter. Nor will they cease fighting you until they turn you back from your faith if they can. And if any of you turn back from their faith (Islam) and die in unbelief, their works will bear no fruit in this life and in the hereafter; they will be companions of the fire and will abide therein." Here in this Holy Verse we see that Allah Almighty talks about those who leave Islam, and promises them punishment in the day of judgment. Allah Almighty doesn't order the death of those people.
Let also look at Noble Verse 5:54 "O ye who believe! If any from among you turn back from his faith, soon will Allah produce a people whom He (Allah) will love as they will love Him lowly with the believers, Mighty against the rejecters, fighting in the way of Allah, and never afraid of the reproachers of such as find fault. That is the Grace of Allah which He will bestow on whom He (Allah) pleaseth. And Allah encompasseth all, and He knoweth all things." Here in this Holy Verse we see again Allah Almighty strengthening the faith of the Muslims in Islam by assuring them that whenever they see Muslims leaving Islam they will also see those who join Islam with strong faith and love to Allah Almighty.
Noble Verse 3:90 "But those who reject faith after they accepted it, and then go on adding to their defiance of faith never will their repentance be accepted; for they are those who have (of set purpose) gone astray." Here in this holy verse we see Allah Almighty rejecting the faith of those who keep coming back and forth to Islam. In order for a human being to accept Islam as his religion, he must be certain about it first. Allah Almighty's path is wide open, and his mercy is greater than this universe. This Holy Verse also does not order the death of those who leave Islam.
ANOTHER SPECIFIC REFERENCE :
47:25-26
Indeed, those who reverted back [to disbelief] after guidance had become clear to them - Satan enticed them and prolonged hope for them.
47:26
That is because they said to those who disliked what Allah sent down, "We will obey you in part of the matter." And Allah knows what they conceal.
So it is clear , Allah in the Qur'an is giving the freedom and the choice to every human to choose his religion and the apostate will be punished in the hereafter not in the life..
Remember that Allah says in 2:256 that " There is no compulsion in Religion " .
But ,There is a weak hadith states that the punishment is to kill until death , well it is a weak hadith according to some scholars , and remember hadith i.e words of Mohammed are words .there are authentic and trustworthy hadiths but not all of them , While the Qur'an is 100 God's word , Where Allah promised to preserve [ 15:9 ] ..
Peace ...
Last edited by Miss Blue; 02-16-2014 at 09:33 AM..
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1 If there arise among you a prophet, or a dreamer of dreams, and giveth thee a sign or a wonder, 2 And the sign or the wonder come to pass, whereof he spake unto thee, saying, Let us go after other gods, which thou hast not known, and let us serve them; 3 Thou shalt not hearken unto the words of that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams: for the LORD your God proveth you, to know whether ye love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul. 4 Ye shall walk after the LORD your God, and fear him, and keep his commandments, and obey his voice, and ye shall serve him, and cleave unto him. 5 And that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams, shall be put to death; because he hath spoken to turn you away from the LORD your God, which brought you out of the land of Egypt, and redeemed you out of the house of bondage, to thrust thee out of the way which the LORD thy God commanded thee to walk in. So shalt thou put the evil away from the midst of thee.
6 If thy brother, the son of thy mother, or thy son, or thy daughter, or the wife of thy bosom, or thy friend, which is as thine own soul, entice thee secretly, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which thou hast not known, thou, nor thy fathers; 7 Namely, of the gods of the people which are round about you, nigh unto thee, or far off from thee, from the one end of the earth even unto the other end of the earth; 8 Thou shalt not consent unto him, nor hearken unto him; neither shall thine eye pity him, neither shalt thou spare, neither shalt thou conceal him: 9 But thou shalt surely kill him; thine hand shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people. 10 And thou shalt stone him with stones, that he die; because he hath sought to thrust thee away from the LORD thy God, which brought thee out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage. 11 And all Israel shall hear, and fear, and shall do no more any such wickedness as this is among you.
12 If thou shalt hear say in one of thy cities, which the LORD thy God hath given thee to dwell there, saying, 13 Certain men, the children of Belial, are gone out from among you, and have withdrawn the inhabitants of their city, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which ye have not known; 14 Then shalt thou inquire, and make search, and ask diligently; and, behold, if it be truth, and the thing certain, that such abomination is wrought among you; 15 Thou shalt surely smite the inhabitants of that city with the edge of the sword, destroying it utterly, and all that is therein, and the cattle thereof, with the edge of the sword. 16 And thou shalt gather all the spoil of it into the midst of the street thereof, and shalt burn with fire the city, and all the spoil thereof every whit, for the LORD thy God: and it shall be an heap for ever; it shall not be built again. 17 And there shall cleave nought of the cursed thing to thine hand: that the LORD may turn from the fierceness of his anger, and show thee mercy, and have compassion upon thee, and multiply thee, as he hath sworn unto thy fathers; 18 When thou shalt hearken to the voice of the LORD thy God, to keep all his commandments which I command thee this day, to do that which is right in the eyes of the LORD thy God.
Remember , That Jesus Christ FULFILLED the law [ Matthew 5:17-18 ]
Luke 10:
18. A certain ruler asked him, "Good teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life?"
19. "Why do you call me good?" Jesus answered. "No one is good--except God alone.
20. You know the commandments: 'Do not commit adultery, do not murder, do not steal, do not give false testimony, honor your father and mother.' "
21. "All these I have kept since I was a boy," he said.
22. When Jesus heard this, he said to him, "You still lack one thing. Sell everything you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me."
So as Jesus himself said, you know the commandments don’t you? Yes, you do, so as Jesus said follow them. And what do we read at the end of Deuteronomy 13:
18 When thou shalt hearken to the voice of the LORD thy God, to keep all his commandments which I command thee this day, to do that which is right in the eyes of the LORD thy God
I am not Christian and have not mentioned it so have no reason to read the second post. (Sorry if that seems ignorant, but it has no relevance). You failed to answer my question. How is that even possible with such a basic question?
Look you know what I am asking you, and you know it is in relevance to Islam and not Christianity.
I asked what 'YOUR PERSONAL' opinion of apostasy was, not what the Qur'an says, and not what the Bible says. Which by the looks of it you have misread or ignored the parts where it DOES mention death to those who leave the religion. A link below for you.
If you have no interest in reading this link I will post some verses for you.
"Qur'an (4:89) - "They wish that you should disbelieve as they disbelieve, and then you would be equal; therefore take not to yourselves friends of them, until they emigrate in the way of God; then, if they turn their backs, take them, and slay them wherever you find them; take not to yourselves any one of them as friend or helper."
Qur'an (9:11-12) - "But if they repent and establish worship and pay the poor-due, then are they your brethren in religion. We detail Our revelations for a people who have knowledge. And if they break their pledges after their treaty (hath been made with you) and assail your religion, then fight the heads of disbelief - Lo! they have no binding oaths - in order that they may desist."
Other verses that seem to support the many Hadith demanding death for apostates are Qur'an verses 2:217, 9:73-74, 88:21, 5:54, and 9:66. "
Ooops.
Now, give me your opinion on the issue. You either support killing those who leave Islam, or you go against the word of the Qur'an and Islamic law. Now we know neither is a good thing, but which side are you on?
See if you can manage it this time.
Last edited by Northern Matt; 02-14-2014 at 04:17 PM..
I am not Christian and have not mentioned it so have no reason to read the second post. (Sorry if that seems ignorant, but it has no relevance). You failed to answer my question. How is that even possible with such a basic question?
Look you know what I am asking you, and you know it is in relevance to Islam and not Christianity.
I asked what 'YOUR PERSONAL' opinion of apostasy was, not what the Qur'an says, and not what the Bible says. Which by the looks of it you have misread or ignored the parts where it DOES mention death to those who leave the religion. A link below for you.
If you have no interest in reading this link I will post some verses for you.
"Qur'an (4:89) - "They wish that you should disbelieve as they disbelieve, and then you would be equal; therefore take not to yourselves friends of them, until they emigrate in the way of God; then, if they turn their backs, take them, and slay them wherever you find them; take not to yourselves any one of them as friend or helper."
Qur'an (9:11-12) - "But if they repent and establish worship and pay the poor-due, then are they your brethren in religion. We detail Our revelations for a people who have knowledge. And if they break their pledges after their treaty (hath been made with you) and assail your religion, then fight the heads of disbelief - Lo! they have no binding oaths - in order that they may desist."
Other verses that seem to support the many Hadith demanding death for apostates are Qur'an verses 2:217, 9:73-74, 88:21, 5:54, and 9:66. "
Ooops.
Now, give me your opinion on the issue. You either support killing those who leave Islam, or you go against the word of the Qur'an and Islamic law. Now we know neither is a good thing, but which side are you on?
See if you can manage it this time.
Sorry for misunderstanding your uncleared question ! .. I think my ''personal opinion'' was quite clear . my opinion is that ''no'' they shouldn't be killed .. BUT regarding the link you quoted , I can go and give you reasons and the interpretations of the hadiths .. because some of them are weak hadiths . as I showed above , Quran gives the freedom of religion choice . and the quotations of the link was from Chapter 4 and Chapter 9 which they actually do not show or do not even command a person to kill an apostate , however , Interpretations of the scholars are endless , that's why the Muslim should be easy and he does not have to study all the interpretations or all the objections of others .. Allah says :
It is He who has sent down to you, [O Muhammad], the Book; in it are verses [that are] precise - they are the foundation of the Book - and others unspecific. As for those in whose hearts is deviation [from truth], they will follow that of it which is unspecific, seeking discord and seeking an interpretation [suitable to them]. And no one knows its [true] interpretation except Allah . But those firm in knowledge say, "We believe in it. All [of it] is from our Lord." And no one will be reminded except those of understanding. ( Noble Quran, 3:7 )
That was merely my opinion others might contradict me , however , you entered one of the second topics of Islam , if you want to know real face of Islam you should look at the white face first , then go to the punishments and interpretations .
"Qur'an (4:89) - "They wish that you should disbelieve as they disbelieve, and then you would be equal; therefore take not to yourselves friends of them, until they emigrate in the way of God; then, if they turn their backs, take them, and slay them wherever you find them; take not to yourselves any one of them as friend or helper."
Qur'an (9:11-12) - "But if they repent and establish worship and pay the poor-due, then are they your brethren in religion. We detail Our revelations for a people who have knowledge. And if they break their pledges after their treaty (hath been made with you) and assail your religion, then fight the heads of disbelief - Lo! they have no binding oaths - in order that they may desist."
Actually , I didn't warn you from the anti-Islamic sites , however , Let us check the words of the commentators who lived among the time of Muhammed pbuh such as Ibn Kathir :
The Oaths of the Leaders of Disbelief mean nothing to Them Print E-mail
Allah says, if the idolators with whom you conducted peace treaties for an appointed term break
﴿أَيْمَـنِهِمْ﴾
(their oaths) meaning, terms of their treaties, and covenants
﴿وَطَعَنُواْ فِى دِينِكُمْ﴾
(and attack your religion...) with disapproval and criticism, it is because of this that one who curses the Messenger, peace be upon him, or attacks the religion of Islam by way of criticism and disapproval, they are to be fought. This is why Allah said afterwards,
(then fight (you) against the leaders of disbelief -- for surely, their oaths are nothing to them -- so that they may stop.) so that they may refrain from the disbelief, rebellion and the transgression they indulge in. Qatadah and others said that the leaders of disbelief were Abu Jahl, `Utbah and Shaybah, Umayyah bin Khalaf, and he went on to mention several others. Al-A`mash narrated from Zayd bin Wahb from Hudhayfah; "The people of this Ayah were never fought again.'' A similar statement was reported from `Ali bin Abi Talib, may Allah be pleased with him. However, this Ayah is general, even though the specific reason behind revealing it was the idolators of Quraysh. So this Ayah generally applies to them and others as well, Allah knows best. Al-Walid bin Muslim said that Safwan bin `Amr narrated that `Abdur-Rahman bin Jubayr bin Nufayr said that when Abu Bakr sent an army to Ash-Sham, he advised them, "You will find some people with shaved heads. Therefore, strike the swords upon the parts that contain the devil, for by Allah, it is better to me to kill one of these people than to kill seventy other men. This is because Allah said,
﴿فَقَـتِلُواْ أَئِمَّةَ الْكُفْرِ﴾
(then fight (you) against the leaders of disbelief.)'' Ibn Abi Hatim collected it.
(13. Will you not fight a people who have violated their oaths and intended to expel the Messenger while they did attack you first Do you fear them Allah has more right that you should fear Him if you are believers.) (14. Fight against them so that Allah will punish them by your hands, and disgrace them and give you victory over them, and heal the breasts of a believing people,) (15. And remove the anger of their (believers') hearts. Allah accepts the repentance of whom He wills. Allah is All-Knowing, All-Wise.)
Now it is opsss that the anti Islamic sites have been exposed from sharing their obvious falsehood instead of returning back to the commaentaries . *sigh*
This is an open thread to everyone to discuss Islam or Christianity to find the truth , Also I posted this thread applying to what Mr5150 asked me to do, anyone is welcome to ask me questions why ISLAM is true .. because it is the closest religion to Christianity ...
The issue ultimately comes down to Who is Jesus? He stated He is only begotten Son of God. The Father gives testimony of the Son.. Both the Devil and demons also gave testimony in the Scriptures that He was indeed the only unique Son of God. (Matthew 4:3)(Matthew 8:29). He said the Father is in Him and when Philip looked at Him he was seeking the expressed image of the Father.
John 14:7-9 (KJV)
If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him. Philip saith unto him, Lord, show us the Father, and it sufficeth us. Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father?
JESUS also said the following..
John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
This is stated in many other places throughout the Scripture... speaking of JESUS prophetically.
Acts 3:22-23 (KJV)
For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you. And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people.
JESUS is God's Passover lamb sacrifice for fallen sinful Man. If we do not receive Him as our Savior and Lord, we are not covered by His blood sacrifice.. the ONLY atonement that is acceptable before God who is Holy and Just yet forgiving, merciful, and kind to those that fear Him in Christ.
The Father saying of the Son..
Matthew 17:5 While he yet spake, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them: and behold a voice out of the cloud, which said, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him.
JESUS says the following..
John 12:48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.
The following one described here is God in Christ..
Revelation 20:11-12 (KJV)
And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
John 5:25-29 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.
For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;
And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.
Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
The issue ultimately comes down to Who is Jesus? He stated He is only begotten Son of God. The Father gives testimony of the Son.. Both the Devil and demons also gave testimony in the Scriptures that He was indeed the only unique Son of God. (Matthew 4:3)(Matthew 8:29). He said the Father is in Him and when Philip looked at Him he was seeking the expressed image of the Father.
John 14:7-9 (KJV)
If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him. Philip saith unto him, Lord, show us the Father, and it sufficeth us. Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father?
JESUS also said the following..
John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
This is stated in many other places throughout the Scripture... speaking of JESUS prophetically.
Acts 3:22-23 (KJV)
For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you. And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people.
JESUS is God's Passover lamb sacrifice for fallen sinful Man. If we do not receive Him as our Savior and Lord, we are not covered by His blood sacrifice.. the ONLY atonement that is acceptable before God who is Holy and Just yet forgiving, merciful, and kind to those that fear Him in Christ.
The Father saying of the Son..
Matthew 17:5 While he yet spake, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them: and behold a voice out of the cloud, which said, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him.
JESUS says the following..
John 12:48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.
The following one described here is God in Christ..
Revelation 20:11-12 (KJV)
And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
John 5:25-29 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.
For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;
And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.
Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
What is the authenticity of the current bible ? How sure you Christians that the current bible is not corrupted ??
I challenge any Christian in the world to stand in front of the audience and pretend that Bible is 100% God's word , let me tell you a simple thing proving that it is man-made ..
when you read the bible , any version of the bible , ( although we don't know which version is true God's word ) , when you read , you will notice that there is [a] or [b] and if you go down to the bottom you will realize that some manuscripts omit this verse or that verse , or they add this verse or that one , so it is obvious that man kept updating it ..
for example :
The Book of Genesis:
"Historically, Jews and Christians alike have held that Moses was the author/compiler of the first five books of the OT. These books, known also as the Pentateuch (meaning "five-volumed book"), were referred to in Jewish tradition as the five fifths of the law (of Moses). The Bible itself suggests Mosaic authorship of Genesis, since Ac 15:1 refers to circumcision as "the custom taught by Moses," an allusion of Ge 17. However, a certain amount of later editorial updating does appear to be indicated (see, e.g., notes on 14:14; 36:31; 47:11). (From the NIV Bible Commentary, page 2)"
So in reality, the book of Genesis had been tampered with by man. It had been corrupted. !
36:30
How regretful for the servants. There did not come to them any messenger except that they used to ridicule him.
6:31
Those will have lost who deny the meeting with Allah , until when the Hour [of resurrection] comes upon them unexpectedly, they will say, "Oh, [how great is] our regret over what we neglected concerning it," while they bear their burdens on their backs. Unquestionably, evil is that which they bear.
I am just going to watch you mocking , but when the time comes , you will see by yourself
I told you to enter Islam through the essential doors not the secondary ones.. if you keep studying these interpretations , you won't know who GOD is .
Ahh.. anyway , God will not lead you astray if you try search him out .
9mod]delete[/mod]
What if he asked me to rape, murder or to purchase a slave?! I'd be following his word, (As it is in the Bible) but going against real laws. Hmmm, I think I'll be civil and do none of those.
Last edited by Miss Blue; 02-16-2014 at 10:58 AM..
Reason: vulgarity and trolling..again
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