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The same petty God who commanded Moses (Numbers 15:32-36) to put to death a man for collecting firewood on the Sabbath.
Is that really how you see God? Or is it just that you've convinced yourself that this is what He's like "because the Bible tells you so"? Have you ever considered the extent to which ordinary human beings are at least somewhat responsible for what is in the Bible?
God commanded Israel to remember the Sabbath, he did not command Gentiles or the Church to remember it. Israel was to remember and keep the Sabbath because it was a special sign between between Israel and God. The Sabbath was part of the Mosaic Law.
However, as I’ve stated many times previously, the 7th-day was blessed and sanctified at Creation by God WAY before the first Jew came into the picture. So, unless God had anticipated a specific group of people - not yet realized - to whom He would command to observe that special day of the week, ‘who’ at the time was to benefit from the 7th-day having been blessed and sanctified? Answer: no one. It would appear that God blessed and sanctified the 7th-day for none other than Himself since no one else was around on earth at the time to appreciate this ‘holy day’.
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Originally Posted by Michael Way
Nowhere in the Bible is it said that the Sabbath was observed by anyone before Israel was given the command to observe it as a day of rest because they were to remember their slavery in Egypt and their deliverance from that slavery by God as per Deuteronomy 5:15. While Exodus 31:17 mentions the Sabbath in connection with the six days of creation (which while Biblical is not scientifically correct) it is also stated in that same passage that the Sabbath was a sign between God and Israel.
Yes. Because Israel were God’s chosen people. To whom else would God have passed on the 7th-day of Creation that was blessed and sanctified, i.e. made holy? That said, were the Gentiles later not grafted into the Jewish faith and a belief in the God of Israel? Did they not adopt the Jewish holy scriptures, the Jewish understanding of God and his ways, and have they not been accepted and saved by the Jewish Messiah?
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Originally Posted by Michael Way
It further states that anyone who does any work on the Sabbath is to be put to death.
Yes, that sounds very much like the God of the Old Testament . . .
Here is the original 4th-commandment: Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days you shall labor, and do all your work, but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the LORD your God. On it you shall not do any work, you, or your son, or your daughter, your male servant, or your female servant, or your livestock, or the sojourner who is within your gates. For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested on the seventh day. Therefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.
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Originally Posted by Michael Way
So for those who insist that the Sabbath command is in effect for the church, logically then so would the command to put to death anyone in the church who does any work on the Sabbath. Are do you pick and choose which commands are still valid and which aren't?
Yes, I do acknowledge what you say there. Similarly so with regard to those who throw a similar text at gay people: Leviticus 20:13.
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Originally Posted by Michael Way
The whole argument that the Sabbath applies to the church is ridiculous and demonstrates ignorance concerning the dispensational differences between Israel and the church. As mentioned before, Jesus is the churches Sabbath or rest. Not a day of the week.
I disagree. The 7th-day was/is a LITERAL day and is not and was not a symbolic representation of Jesus.
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Originally Posted by Michael Way
While nine of the ten commandments do come down to the church, they do so not as part of the Mosaic law, but as principles of freedom. If you steal or murder someone for instance, you take away their freedom to own property or to live.
How about the first 3 commands? Are they just for Israel?
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Originally Posted by Michael Way
The Sabbath command on the other hand has not come down to the church, and as Paul said,
Colossians 2:16 Therefore let no one pass judgment on you in questions of food and drink, or with regard to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath. 17] These are a shadow of the things to come, but the substance belongs to Christ. The Sabbath which Paul mentions includes the 7th day Sabbath, not just the Sabbaths that are part of Israel's celebrations which occurred as certain times of the year.
Again, I disagree. The 7th-day Sabbath WAS NOT one of the ordinances that, as Paul states, “were nailed to the cross”. The Sabbath was never a sign that pointed toward the Messiah but rather a specific day of the week that was initiated at Creation …not only way before the first Jew but also way before ‘the fall of man’. Until ‘sin’ entered the world there was no need for a Messiah so therefore no need of a symbolic Sabbath pointing to a not as yet realized ‘Savior’.
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Originally Posted by Michael Way
If someone chooses to keep it, fine. If someone chooses not to keep it, fine.
Yep. It’s up to the individual to do as they see fit. Just as long as they don’t refer to Sunday as ‘the Sabbath’ - AS MANY OF THEM DO! – in which case I would find it difficult to believe anything else they might preach to me about the Bible.
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Originally Posted by Michael Way
The church can worship God at any time, on any day. But because Jesus was raised on a Sunday, that is when the church, from the beginning, has chosen for worship. That doesn't mean that Sunday is the Sabbath. It's simply the churches day of worship.
I doubt that anyone would say that a church can’t assemble for worship any time. And, Sunday is the day that most Christian church doors are open for worship. People routinely go to church on Sunday. It's a habit. Most would not consider WHY Sunday? The church I formerly belonged to might get together several times a week on occasions for one function or another – all relative to ‘worship’ – but there was only one specific day that was the Sabbath and we all knew what day that was.
That said - and I once again repeat myself - ask MOST Christians if they keep the 4th-command of the Big Ten and they will answer, "Yes." They may not EVEN KNOW what the 4th-command IS but they will answer 'yes' because they want to be seen as keeping the commandments, commandments that they don't realize, according to the so-called 'New Covenant', they are no longer obliged to keep.
Moreover, ask them which day is the Sabbath and they will invariably answer ..."Sunday." You see, they BELIEVE that they ARE honoring the Sabbath of the 4th-command. They have no idea that the Christian Church as a whole takes the view that the Ten Commandments were only given to Israel and not the Gentiles ...i.e. present-day Christians. Michael, you KNOW that, often, it's a case of the blind leading the blind without my having to mention this.
The same petty God who commanded Moses (Numbers 15:32-36) to put to death a man for collecting firewood on the Sabbath.
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Originally Posted by Katzpur
Is that really how you see God? Or is it just that you've convinced yourself that this is what He's like "because the Bible tells you so"? Have you ever considered the extent to which ordinary human beings are at least somewhat responsible for what is in the Bible?
Katzpur, of course this isn't how I see a Creator God. However, I'm not so sure that the God described in the Old Testament IS that Creator God. The above was just a tongue-in-cheek response to a post suggesting that God is not petty when we can clearly see that, when reading the OT, 'pettiness' and 'rage' is OFTEN demonstrated by the Old Testament God.
However, as I’ve stated many times previously, the 7th-day was blessed and sanctified at Creation by God WAY before the first Jew came into the picture.
Or so the story goes. And it is a story which was written mainly as a polemic against the creation stories of Israel's ANE neighbors.
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So, unless God had anticipated a specific group of people - not yet realized - to whom He would command to observe that special day of the week, ‘who’ at the time was to benefit from the 7th-day having been blessed and sanctified? Answer: no one. It would appear that God blessed and sanctified the 7th-day for none other than Himself since no one else was around on earth at the time to appreciate this ‘holy day’.
There were people before the Hebrews came along. But no command for them to keep the Sabbath.
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Yes. Because Israel were God’s chosen people. To whom else would God have passed on the 7th-day of Creation that was blessed and sanctified, i.e. made holy? That said, were the Gentiles later not grafted into the Jewish faith and a belief in the God of Israel? Did they not adopt the Jewish holy scriptures, the Jewish understanding of God and his ways, and have they not been accepted and saved by the Jewish Messiah?
The Gentiles were not grafted into Israel. That is not what Paul was saying in his olive tree analogy. Your statement shows a lack of understanding, or a rejection, of the dispensational nature of God's plan. As I earlier stated, with a change in dispensations certain things no longer apply (I may have said that on the other thread).
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Yes, that sounds very much like the God of the Old Testament . . .
Here is the original 4th-commandment: Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days you shall labor, and do all your work, but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the LORD your God. On it you shall not do any work, you, or your son, or your daughter, your male servant, or your female servant, or your livestock, or the sojourner who is within your gates. For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested on the seventh day. Therefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.
But the command was given only to Israel. Not to anyone else.
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Yes, I do acknowledge what you say there. Similarly so with regard to those who throw a similar text at gay people: Leviticus 20:13.
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I disagree. The 7th-day was/is a LITERAL day and is not and was not a symbolic representation of Jesus.
That's your opinion. Surely you know that proponents of the day-age theory of creation take the creation days to be long geological ages and not 24 hour days. And some argue that the seventh day never ended since Genesis 2:3 does not contain the phrase ''and there was evening and there was morning, the seventh day.'' There are several different scholarly views concerning the Genesis creation story.
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How about the first 3 commands? Are they just for Israel?
I already addressed that, either in this thread or in the other thread on the Sabbath. I forget which. Of the ten commandments, the only that didn't come down to the church is the command to keep the Sabbath. But those commands did not come down as part of the Mosaic Law but as principles of freedom. The first three commands have to do with worshiping and honoring God which of course is expected of his people. And the Church is just as much God's people as Israel is. But they are two different peoples.
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Again, I disagree. The 7th-day Sabbath WAS NOT one of the ordinances that, as Paul states, “were nailed to the cross”. The Sabbath was never a sign that pointed toward the Messiah but rather a specific day of the week that was initiated at Creation …not only way before the first Jew but also way before ‘the fall of man’. Until ‘sin’ entered the world there was no need for a Messiah so therefore no need of a symbolic Sabbath pointing to a not as yet realized ‘Savior’.
Well, you're wrong. The Sabbath, being a part of the Mosaic law was a tutor or guardian until Christ came as per Galatians 3:24. Again, as Paul said, let no one judge you with regard to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath. (Col. 2:16). That includes the weekly Sabbath, not just the Sabbaths that were a part of Jewish holy days.
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Yep. It’s up to the individual to do as they see fit. Just as long as they don’t refer to Sunday as ‘the Sabbath’ - AS MANY OF THEM DO! – in which case I would find it difficult to believe anything else they might preach to me about the Bible.
I doubt that anyone would say that a church can’t assemble for worship any time. And, Sunday is the day that most Christian church doors are open for worship. People routinely go to church on Sunday. It's a habit. Most would not consider WHY Sunday? The church I formerly belonged to might get together several times a week on occasions for one function or another – all relative to ‘worship’ – but there was only one specific day that was the Sabbath and we all knew what day that was.
That said - and I once again repeat myself - ask MOST Christians if they keep the 4th-command of the Big Ten and they will answer, "Yes." They may not EVEN KNOW what the 4th-command IS but they will answer 'yes' because they want to be seen as keeping the commandments, commandments that they don't realize, according to the so-called 'New Covenant', they are no longer obliged to keep.
Moreover, ask them which day is the Sabbath and they will invariably answer ..."Sunday." You see, they BELIEVE that they ARE honoring the Sabbath of the 4th-command. They have no idea that the Christian Church as a whole takes the view that the Ten Commandments were only given to Israel and not the Gentiles ...i.e. present-day Christians. Michael, you KNOW that, often, it's a case of the blind leading the blind without my having to mention this.
There's no doubt that most Christians aren't as knowledgeable about things pertaining to the Bible and to Christianity as they should be.
The same petty God who commanded Moses (Numbers 15:32-36) to put to death a man for collecting firewood on the Sabbath.
Yep, that was one way of keeping the holiness of the seventh day in the minds of the godly, until the reality which is, that Christ is the Lord of the Sabbath could be revealed, making the weekly Sabbath, which is but a shadow of that reality that is found in Christ, redundant.
How do we know that the seventh day is almost upon us?
We know that Adam died in the first day of this age of man.
And we know from Jubilees 4: 30; That (ADAM) lacked seventy years of one thousand years; for one thousand years are as one day in the testimony of the heavens and therefore was it written concerning the tree of knowledge: ’On the day that ye eat thereof ye shall die.’ For this reason he did not complete the years of that day; for he died during it.
We know that Jesus is the Lord of the Sabbath, which is the seventh day, from the day in which Adam ate of the forbidden fruit and died in that day at the age of 930.
The Great Sabbath day of one thousand years, is the day of our Lord: Acts 17: 31; The day that the Lord has fixed in which he shall judge the whole world with justice by means of a ‘MAN’ that He has ‘CHOSEN. He has given proof of this to everyone, By raising that ’MAN’ from death.
Jesus, who we once knew as a man, the faithful and obedient servant of the Lord, who has been given divine glory by the God of our ancestors, the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.
Jesus who has been appointed as our King and High Priest, and now sits in the throne of our heavenly Father, and invites all those who, like himself, are able to win the victory over the god of this world, to sit beside him in his heavenly throne, from where, according to Paul, they will judge even the angels.
Katzpur, of course this isn't how I see a Creator God. However, I'm not so sure that the God described in the Old Testament IS that Creator God. The above was just a tongue-in-cheek response to a post suggesting that God is not petty when we can clearly see that, when reading the OT, 'pettiness' and 'rage' is OFTEN demonstrated by the Old Testament God.
Romulus is playing devils advocate- and it should lead people to question/think about what they believe/why they believe it - not just give a canned response of “my church says so it must be so”, or “the bible says so it must be so”
Romulus is playing devils advocate- and it should lead people to question/think about what they believe/why they believe it - not just give a canned response of “my church says so it must be so”, or “the bible says so it must be so”
Thank you, Meerkat2 ...that's pretty much what I'm attempting to do. Being in New Zealand I don't know if you would be familiar with Phil Donahue who had a popular week-day talk show on American TV back in the 1970's/80's. Actually, I do believe his show was on air for 25 years or more.
Anyway, Phil was a real pro at stirring up a debate should it start to lapse into the doldrums. However, as a professional moderator his own opinions were generally kept to himself but he would regularly play the devil's advocate to encourage equal arguments to come from all sides and keep the topic at hand flowing and interesting.
Anyone here Stateside remember the Donahue Show?
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but they will answer 'yes' because they want to be seen as keeping the commandments, commandments that they don't realize, according to the so-called 'New Covenant', they are no longer obliged to keep.
