Are you Saved if you have not been Baptised? (beliefs, baptized, faith)
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Your correct ... you're still not getting it.
The water in Noah's case is equal to the water in baptism.
"In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water, and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also"
The reason Peter says baptism now saves you is because God says it does.
It gets no clearer than that.
I agree baptism now saves you - that isn't the problem.
Your problem is accepting the fact that the Bible and Jesus Himself says that He will baptize with the Holy Spirit and you can't accept it. So you use peripheral verses (incorrectly IMO) to try and prove your point - when there are direct verses that say Jesus will baptize with the Holy Spirit.
If you're referring to people speaking in tongues, I don't believe that's the baptism of the Holy Spirit.
Interesting that you focus upon the tongues and neglect the fact that they received the Spirit - indicating that they had been baptized into Christ through faith and not through water.
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Originally Posted by GREATDIVIDE46
Being baptized in the name of Jesus is being baptized in water.
No it isn't. You will find that nowhere in Scripture - but only in your interpretation in the use of the term "baptize".
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Originally Posted by GREATDIVIDE46
I don't believe I said they were exceptions, but if I did I was wrong. They aren't people being baptized without water at all.
Post #54.. No water in Acts 2. Spirit had been received already in Acts 10 before water suggested. No water in Acts 19. There are no exceptions - those are in line with what Christ said.
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Originally Posted by GREATDIVIDE46
There is no baptism without water. The baptism of the Holy Spirit and baptism in water are the same baptism (see John 3:5 and Ephesians 4:5).
We will just have to disagree on the use of the term.
Quote:
Originally Posted by GREATDIVIDE46
On the contrary, I'm taking baptism in its literal meaning and not trying to redefine it in order to make it fit my man made doctrine. I used to believe the same thing you do, but I just couldn't abide all the hermeneutical gymnastics that one has to perform in order to maintain that belief.
I suggest taking Christ at what He said. Is not Jesus able to do what He said He would do? Forget the gymnastics. Believe in what Christ said He would do.
To baptize means to dip in water. Water is inherent in the word baptize. To baptize into anything other thing than water was an metaphoric use of the word. For example, to be baptize in the Spirit meant to be overwhelmed by the Spirit, not actually baptized in it.
Interesting that you focus upon the tongues and neglect the fact that they received the Spirit - indicating that they had been baptized into Christ through faith and not through water.
I'm focusing on the tongues because that's what happend. They received the gift of tongues (a gift of the Holy Spirit). They did not receive the Spirit, Himself. While it is true that receiving the Spirit indicates that one has been baptized into Christ through faith it also indicates that one has been baptized. Obviously this is not the function of the gift of tongues. According the Paul we are all baptized into the body in one Spirit. Since everyone doesn't speak in tongues, tongues cannot be the indicator that one has received the Spirit.
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I suggest taking Christ at what He said. Is not Jesus able to do what He said He would do? Forget the gymnastics. Believe in what Christ said He would do.
I am taking Christ at what He said. He said, John baptized with water but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit, meaning you will be immersed in water with the Holy Spirit, since baptism means immersion in water, just like a bath means using water.
I'm focusing on the tongues because that's what happend. They received the gift of tongues (a gift of the Holy Spirit). They did not receive the Spirit, Himself. While it is true that receiving the Spirit indicates that one has been baptized into Christ through faith it also indicates that one has been baptized. Obviously this is not the function of the gift of tongues. According the Paul we are all baptized into the body in one Spirit. Since everyone doesn't speak in tongues, tongues cannot be the indicator that one has received the Spirit.
I absolutely disagreed with this several pages back, but I'll say it again: you are introducing an unnecessary and unwarranted distinction here to try to prove your point.
OF COURSE the people here received the Spirit. For you to insist otherwise is ridiculous. And OF COURSE speaking in tongues does not save you, and OF COURSE not everyone does. So stop knocking over strawmen.
For you to ignore that verse 43 doesn't mention baptism, and then to insist that "Holy Spirit fell upon them" (44), "gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles" (45), "received the Holy Spirit just as we have" (47) are all talking about some tongues-only, non "real Holy Spirit" event is flabbergasting.
The scripture is in pain from you bending it so badly.
I have heard it both ways. I have heard that even if you give your heart to Jesus and profess His Name as The Messiah, if you have not been Baptised you still are not Saved
I have heard that Baptism is merely a public display of Faith and is not required for Salvation, because Jesus already took care of that on The Cross
What are your views on this?
Baptism is a display of faith. It is a publicly witnessed declaration of your following Jesus Christ. From the perspective of the covenant, it is command of Jesus Christ which He Himself won't skip. So if you choose to disobey His command, it means that He reserves the right to reject you.
The thief on the cross didn't choose to disobey His command. That's the fundamental difference. To simply put, if you are faithful to Him you should listen to His commands. If you choose not to follow His commands, what justifies the saying that "you believe in Him"?
I agree baptism Scripture teaches that baptism - that isn't the problem.
Your problem is accepting the fact that the Bible and Jesus Himself says that He will baptize with the Holy Spirit and you can't accept it. So you use peripheral verses (incorrectly IMO) to try and prove your point - when there are direct verses that say Jesus will baptize with the Holy Spirit.
Great ... glad to know that you agree that " baptism now saves you". So do I.
Never said that I do not agree that He will baptize with the Holy Spirit ... I'm stating that "He will baptize with the Holy Spirit" happens also through the the water and the word ..... i.e. baptism.
Scripture teaches that baptism is a means of grace
Scripture teaches that baptism saves you because of the ressurection of Jesus
Scriptures teaches that it makes disciples of all nations ( and "all" includes infants)
Last edited by twin.spin; 09-05-2012 at 04:40 PM..
Being baptized in the name of Jesus is being baptized in water.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DRob4JC
No it isn't. You will find that nowhere in Scripture - but only in your interpretation in the use of the term "baptize".
Acts 8:13 Then Simon himself believed also: and when he was baptized, he continued with Philip, and wondered, beholding the miracles and signs which were done.
14 Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John:
15 Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost:
16 (For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.)
17 Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost.
Acts 8:35 Then Philip opened his mouth, and began at the same scripture, and preached unto him Jesus.
36 And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized?
I absolutely disagreed with this several pages back, but I'll say it again: you are introducing an unnecessary and unwarranted distinction here to try to prove your point.
OF COURSE the people here received the Spirit. For you to insist otherwise is ridiculous. And OF COURSE speaking in tongues does not save you, and OF COURSE not everyone does. So stop knocking over strawmen.
I agree that these people received the Holy Spirit and I agree that speaking in tongues does not save you, so what is the unwarranted distinction that you believe I am introducing?
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For you to ignore that verse 43 doesn't mention baptism, and then to insist that "Holy Spirit fell upon them" (44), "gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles" (45), "received the Holy Spirit just as we have" (47) are all talking about some tongues-only, non "real Holy Spirit" event is flabbergasting.
Don't get me wrong. Tongues is a real Holy Spirit event. It's just not the baptism of the Holy Spirit which always results in salvation. Tongues has nothing to do with gaining salvation, but it is still a real Holy Spirit event.
Quote:
The scripture is in pain from you bending it so badly.
The unnecessary and unwarranted distinction you introduce is agreeing that they "received the Holy Spirit" (just as Peter had), and then trying to claim that's not a salvific reception, and/or doesn't include the "baptism of the Holy Spirit". The rest of the NT makes no such distinction upon Holy Spirit receptions - if you receive the Spirit, you're good to go as a Christian (c.f. Romans 8:9)
The only reason it's not a salvific event for you is because you have to make it fit your system, and I'm not buying it.
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