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I don't think Phazelwood is arguing that you should get credit for having faith in Christ.
However, when you say that all you need to do is have faith in Christ - you are crediting the sinner with his own salvation.
No, I am not actually arguing that man gets credit, I am showing how certain doctrines are in contradiction to the very scriptures they use.
Salvation is not of man, any choice a man makes about his salvation is based upon the scriptural concept that Gods action of LOVE brings about the act of a person willingly believing and Loving God.
What Mike teaches is a contradiction. If a man must trust Christ out of his own will and God has nothing to do with that act of a person, then that act of trust is credited to the person and salvation is awarded.
No, I am not actually arguing that man gets credit, I am showing how certain doctrines are in contradiction to the very scriptures they use.
Salvation is not of man, any choice a man makes about his salvation is based upon the scriptural concept that Gods action of LOVE brings about the act of a person willingly believing and Loving God.
What Mike teaches is a contradiction. If a man must trust Christ out of his own will and God has nothing to do with that act of a person, then that act of trust is credited to the person and salvation is awarded.
The manner in which a person get their name in the book of life and why it stays there (or don't) is all on topic.
I happen to agree that a persons name once in the book of life stays there. The nature of why it does or doesn't stay is not a topic for another thread.
Then this is a waste of time as number of people have explained it and provided links to further studies, but you keep coming back to say "it does not suffice".
Actually, no one has explained it, they just gave their cursory interpretation that does not fit the scripture. Neither you, Mike555 or any other has provided and EXPLANATION of the actual scripture and how your interpretation is reflected in what Paul wrote.
I understand if you cannot actually correlate your paraphrased explanation with the scripture because i see no correlation either.
Since you cannot answer my previous questions about the actual scripture either, let me ask some others about your interpretation.
1) For those who were saved that went back to sacrificing under the mosaic law covenant and would not stop, what was in store for them?
2) If once saved always saved was in effect for them, what was the purpose of Paul's warning here and the metaphor in verse 8?
3) So, if a Buddhist learns of Christianity and converts but after a time goes back to burning incense and praying to Buhdda at the temple too because of family pressure, that is OK, since they did not renounce their christian belief and are saved?
God is not kidding around when He promises eternal life to those who believe. How anyone can believe He would back down on this promise which is repeated 200 times in the Bible, is beyond me.
John 10:28 I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand. I and the Father are one
John 6:40 For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son andbelieves in himshall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.”
Ephesians 1:13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.
Romans 8:38 For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, 39 neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Since you cannot answer my previous questions about the actual scripture either, let me ask some others about your interpretation.
So you are asking "some others" about my view. Interesting. What's the point of making comments like that?
Quote:
1) For those who were saved that went back to sacrificing under the mosaic law covenant and would not stop, what was in store for them?
Anyone who is saved and slips needs only to repent, but if you choose other remedies such as animal sacrifice, you disobey the will of God and it will grieve/suffocate the Holy Spirit and keep it from acting in you life, and you will stop producing fruit. You will see no spiritual growth until you repent and come back to the right path. If you die in this state, you will experience the test of fire, which is actually how the works of every believer will be tested (I already explained this once) as in 1 Cor 3:13. It is not the believer who burns, but their works.
their work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each person’s work. 14 If what has been built survives, the builder will receive a reward. 15 If it is burned up, the builder will suffer loss but yet will be saved—even though only as one escaping through the flames.
Quote:
2) If once saved always saved was in effect for them, what was the purpose of Paul's warning here and the metaphor in verse 8?
See above
Quote:
3) So, if a Buddhist learns of Christianity and converts but after a time goes back to burning incense and praying to Buhdda at the temple too because of family pressure, that is OK, since they did not renounce their christian belief and are saved?
If he was saved, he was saved. I posted more Bible verses proving that once you are saved, no one can snatch you out of God's hands, not even the doubting heart like yours.
It is sad that most believers think that you lose your salvation. One of Satan's strategies for the believer is to get him to worry about losing his eternal salvation, as that keeps him off balance in his spiritual life.
I'm always glad when a believer understands that his salvation is secure.
AMEN! How can anyone enjoy their salvation if they think they could lose it at anytime.
This is the problem with electronic text dialog. Readers have a tendency to impart their own emotions and frailties on the author. I am happy and smiling while writing all of these messages. You have set yourself up as having "far more knowledge" and so I did not perceive that you would feel this intimidated by a continuing dialog on specific point. I acknowledge that I have taunted you a bit about your arrogance but I figured you had the chops to handle that since you were the one crowing.
I have been following the thread and want to forestall some of the tangential points you have been making and focus again specifically of Hebrews 6:1-8, which you continually avoid.
1) We are not discussing means of salvation – faith vs. works
2) We are not engaging in scriptural one-upmanship - My cited scripture invalidates yours.
You specifically stated that you believe Hebrews 6:4-8 is teaching the principle of once saved, always saved. You also stated that the proofs for this are in the surrounding scriptural context. You then glossed over any substantive explanation to support your points and referred to some links that ALSO did not support your stated arguments, nor answer my questions.
I have provided specific scriptural NASB reference, but you can cite your prefered translation. I have asked specific questions related to the text. The requests continue unanswered.
I do not feel the need in being drawn in the tangential discussions. One accurately understood scripture is enough to settle the point that someone saved CAN fall away to a judgment of destruction.
Hebrews 6:1-8 is specific to that point and a direct contradiction to the “once saved always saved” belief.
So here it is again, for you Mike555 or anyone else who can jump into a discussion on this specific scripture.
Referencing Hebrews 6:1-8
The Peril of Falling Away
1Therefore leaving the elementary teaching about the Christ, let us press on to maturity, not laying again a foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God, 2of instruction about washings and laying on of hands, and the resurrection of the dead and eternal judgment. 3And this we will do, if God permits. 4For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame. 7For ground that drinks the rain which often falls on it and brings forth vegetation useful to those for whose sake it is also tilled, receives a blessing from God; 8but if it yields thorns and thistles, it is worthless and close to being cursed, and it ends up being burned. (NASB)
Show us in the text or surrounding Bible verses were the description does not fit the description of the "saved".
Show us in text or the surrounding Bible verse where "then have fallen away" does not mean fallen away from the previous qualifying description of being saved.
Show us in text or the surrounding Bible verses where the reinforcing illustration of the "fallen away" producing thorns and thistles and "ends up being burned" could possibly be a judgment of the saved.
I do not know if you are feigning a feeling of intimidation to back out of responding or if you really are that dispirited, but I will gladly reduce the playful banter to keep you engaged in a dialog. So please, step up and provide your answers to my queries; your previous posts certainly have not done so.
Accusing me of being intimated by you is a tactic to bait me into a debate. Hebrews 6:4-8 has already been explained to you and some material was provided for you to study. Your attitude is that theologians are attempting to explain away scriptures, rather then to explain them. Like many, you use that excuse of 'precepts and doctrines of men.' Therefore, you are unteachable. And it is a waste of time to try to teach you something that you have no desire to learn. Go back and read post #80 where I show from Scripture that the believer can not lose his salvation.
I don't think Phazelwood is arguing that you should get credit for having faith in Christ.
However, when you say that all you need to do is have faith in Christ - you are crediting the sinner with his own salvation.
No. The whole point is that all the credit goes to Jesus Christ and His completed, finished work on the cross.
There is no MERITORIOUS work that a person can do by which he can take credit. Trusting in Christ is not working for your salvation.
Look. The jailor asked Paul and Silas (Acts 16:30) what he must do to be saved. He was told to believe in the Lord Jesus.
But Eph 2:8-9 and Romans 4:1-9 both make it clear that you get no credit for believing. Trusting in Christ is not a work. Now in John 6:28-29, Jesus called believing in Him a work of God, but that was a play on words, as He had been asked what works - (plural), must be done to do the works of God. Jesus responded by saying that the work - (singular) of God was to believe in Him.
So what I have always said, is that there is no merit in faith. The merit is in Jesus Christ. He gets the credit. This is so no man can boast (Eph 2:9).
You have to believe in Christ to be eternally saved. Trusting in Christ who did all the work to make salvation possible is not crediting the sinner with or for his own salvation. Trusting in Christ, depending on Christ, is in fact crediting Christ for your salvation.
I'm not against those scriptures, don't change the subject.
To say that you do not get credit for trusting Christ is incorrect if a person must trust Christ out of their own will. Because if a person trusts Christ then they are awarded salvation where they will not be otherwise. That is award based upon an action taken, there is no getting around it if a person can only trust Christ from an act of their own will.
However with that said, God gaurantees that he will bring man to the point of meeting the conditions of salvation, that is why it is impossible for mankind to ultimatly be lost, it is the absolute assurance that salvation is not of man that gaurantees it.
That is not the issue at all. You falsely think that you must be speaking absolute truth. If I take issue with your doctrine, it doesn't mean I have taken issue against scripture. I always have to remind you of this, but it is ok, I do not mind, I will continue to do so when necessary.
Irrelevant, please stay in the discussion at hand, what you think of me doesn't change anything. I know your heart is dark towards me, but that is something you will have to work out with God, I can't help you. It is ok, God will forgive you and work the darkness out of you.
He's working on me as well.
Look. Go to post #130 and try to comprehend it. End of discussion.
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fallen away is OK?
