Separation of church and state?!?!? (Gospel, churches, beliefs, evolution)
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I recently mentioned on another thread, that the idea of a "separation" of church and state is erroneous.
Politics is about governing people. Religion is about governing people (including their afterlife).
As food for thought, try to imagine what would happen to US government if all Americans were to become Amish.
- The Amish do not vote. (there would be no more elections, and no more candidates to elect, no more scandals and trickery to read about)
- The Amish do not bear arms. (there would be no way to promote imperialism, no way to start wars, nor any way to "defend" the country; their politics dictate trusting in God rather than trusting in horses and chariots)
- The Amish do not support much of the modern American way of life. (there would be no large profit-seeking corporations, no major deficits, no major financial scams, etc.)
Religion is indeed politics. The Amish have a particular way of life which defines how society is to be run. The Bible is their "political guide," and God is their "president." If everyone in America became Amish, the current government would collapse.
Perhaps this is a central reason why the early Christians were persecuted: because they had their own politics, which were very different from what the State was "promoting." They were interested in obeying God rather than man. (Obeying in a very practical way, not just through reciting a creed on Sundays.)
The only reason the Amish are allowed to exist, is because they are very few. But if whole cities of people became Amish, many politicians would be without a job. And not just in America.
This is a post that strikes me as worthy of a response.
Brian,
You are so right.
In America, we are free to choose what and how to believe, and what and how to worship. But it goes beyond mere politics and religion. Religion to me is a disgusting word. Not that it started off that way, but like the church, has become this way.
We are born with rights. These rights come from our Creator. Even the Atheist doesn't acknowledge existence granted from the state. So, we are born into this world. It is ours. It isn't anyone else's. Who we choose to follow, and who we elect to lead us, is still based upon the power that each of us have, as human beings. Still, the power of choice.
People of certain faiths, including Chirstianity, think it is their personal duty to graft the world into their beliefs. Why? What makes the Indian so wrong, verses the hermit in the hills? If we are truly free, then we are free indeed. The ONLY way to relinquish this freedom, is to grant it to another, or be conquered by force.
The Amish are outside the system. They operate as the only free people living in these united States. They hold no corporate status, including social security cards, birth certificates, and need no permission from the government to conduct business. They pay no taxes, hold no office, and own their lands outright. They are free, because they have but 1 King.
But, you are right. They are few. And they are not a threat.
The early Christians felt the same way. They were outside Rome's political forces, and thereby accepted nothing in ways of privilages and benefits. Rome felt this to be a threat, because their power derived from force, and since force could not persuade the early Christians to join them, they were slaughtered by the thousands, even as sport.
This government was set up in a way that kept the balance of power within the people. Not the state. Is it this way, today? So, by the trickery of lawyers and judges, they have stripped the people of their TRUE power, and purpose. They have forsaken their King, and followed another. So, we reap what we sow. We will fall, and our children will remain enslaved until the day arrives that they revolt.
Our children are born into bondage. They have a debt load of about $120,000 just by being born. They are traded and sold on the stock market, and held as collateral to the banks. Why do you think it is callled the 'public debt'? There is no material collateral, as WE are the collateral. It has been this way since Egypt, when Joseph betrayed the Egyptians into slavery. Well, he did feed them, but the cost of feeding was that they lost EVERYTHING including their own freedom. This story is the first reminder of how society works.
Try living off the land today. Try being free and independent. It is impossible, unless you move onto someone else's land or take their goods. Growing your own food requires tribute in the form of real estate taxes due yearly to the land masters. Owning your own business requires you to succumb to the monetary policies dictated to us by the federal reserve banks, or IMF.
So, our goodly loss is their evil gain.
But the day will arise when the King will have had enough, and will come to liberate HIS people. After all, this land is HIS land, and we are HIS people.
Men try to do this today, even in America. They are called cults, freaks, anarchists, etc. The amish are looked at as the remanants of the old way, and the by-gone yester years. Society considers them the same way I just described, and one day, it will come to a head for them. After all, those with power want it ALL. and if there is some they do not have, they will either be tricked into giving it up, or it will be taken from them.
We give up freedom for:
Bread. We need to eat, right?
Security. We want to be given the illusion of security, even if it is just that. An illusion.
Money. How many have traded their freedoms for riches? After all, with money, their is also an illusion of freedom. Freedom to what one wants, when they want. Freedom that depends on taking it from another, because how else would one aquire mass wealth, without stripping it from someone else, either by trade, or force?
Notice these 3 things. Bread, Security, and Money.
What was Jesus Himself tempted with?
Now you can SEE what freedom actually is. It is the freedom to just say:
Spoiler
NO!! I have but 1 King, and His Name is ABOVE ALL others!!! Jesus Christ!!
I recently mentioned on another thread, that the idea of a "separation" of church and state is erroneous.
Politics is about governing people. Religion is about governing people (including their afterlife).
As food for thought, try to imagine what would happen to US government if all Americans were to become Amish.
- The Amish do not vote. (there would be no more elections, and no more candidates to elect, no more scandals and trickery to read about)
- The Amish do not bear arms. (there would be no way to promote imperialism, no way to start wars, nor any way to "defend" the country; their politics dictate trusting in God rather than trusting in horses and chariots)
- The Amish do not support much of the modern American way of life. (there would be no large profit-seeking corporations, no major deficits, no major financial scams, etc.)
Religion is indeed politics. The Amish have a particular way of life which defines how society is to be run. The Bible is their "political guide," and God is their "president." If everyone in America became Amish, the current government would collapse.
Perhaps this is a central reason why the early Christians were persecuted: because they had their own politics, which were very different from what the State was "promoting." They were interested in obeying God rather than man. (Obeying in a very practical way, not just through reciting a creed on Sundays.)
The only reason the Amish are allowed to exist, is because they are very few. But if whole cities of people became Amish, many politicians would be without a job. And not just in America.
Something to think about.
Blessings to all,
brian
1- Christianity is about relationship - not religion
2- If every became Amish? An unrealistic extrapolation to make your point.
We are born with rights. These rights come from our Creator. Even the Atheist doesn't acknowledge existence granted from the state. So, we are born into this world. It is ours. It isn't anyone else's. Who we choose to follow, and who we elect to lead us, is still based upon the power that each of us have, as human beings. Still, the power of choice.
This would not fly in Iran or China. Our rights are because we are born in this country.
Quote:
Originally Posted by HotinAZ
People of certain faiths, including Chirstianity, think it is their personal duty to graft the world into their beliefs. Why?
Doesn't Christ command us to share the gospel? This is not an issue of force, but God's power through the gospel.
Quote:
Originally Posted by HotinAZ
The Amish are outside the system. They operate as the only free people living in these united States. They hold no corporate status, including social security cards, birth certificates, and need no permission from the government to conduct business. They pay no taxes, hold no office, and own their lands outright. They are free, because they have but 1 King.
We all have equal freedoms in this country. The Amish choose to live at a low monetary level. They are subject to the same tax laws, birth certificate documentation, etc. as every other person.
It is the freedom of religion in America and some other countries is that the government cannot create any laws that inhibit religion , but it also adds that if It cannot create laws that it will not support any religion in its business..... Where in the past it did support religion and promoted religion but not individual religion types....... In some area of America some local government are siding with Muslim religious laws because some Muslim may attack protesters, were local government have jailed protesters who protest Muslims ......; for example Pastor Terry Jones said he was going protest a Muslim Temple and the local Michigan Police put hand cuffs on him threw him in Jail which was ilegal...because of the freedom of speech laws.....
I have a question, does God want us to be able to worship what ever or who ever we want, I understand about the amish having separation, and it sounds nice to be free, but does the Bible really set things up so we can have freedom of religion and freedom to do as we want, are we not in trouble now, with all this freedom to do as we please, do we really have separation of chruch and state now anyway, it seems a person can be a witch or satanist or homosexual, or fornicator, or so many things and it is freedom of rights to practice wickedness, it seems that it is God's Word we are supposed to be following not what America was supposed to be or what we need to be by what even our founding fathers of this country wanted to make us, it seems any country that does not run itself by God and His Word will perish, and certianly America is not living God's Word, nor is the government, nor the churches, nor the media, nor the schools with evolution and all the other stuff they can teach, so is any country going to survive? What country lives by God?
I have a question, does God want us to be able to worship what ever or who ever we want, I understand about the amish having separation, and it sounds nice to be free, but does the Bible really set things up so we can have freedom of religion and freedom to do as we want, are we not in trouble now, with all this freedom to do as we please, do we really have separation of chruch and state now anyway, it seems a person can be a witch or satanist or homosexual, or fornicator, or so many things and it is freedom of rights to practice wickedness, it seems that it is God's Word we are supposed to be following not what America was supposed to be or what we need to be by what even our founding fathers of this country wanted to make us, it seems any country that does not run itself by God and His Word will perish, and certianly America is not living God's Word, nor is the government, nor the churches, nor the media, nor the schools with evolution and all the other stuff they can teach, so is any country going to survive? What country lives by God?
Yes, in fact, there aren't any countries that live by God. Separation of church and state does not exist, because religion IS politics. If Christians lived by the Word of God, they would not participate in government activities, because God is their Governor.
But politicians are slick, and they understand that most people do not take their religion seriously enough to live by it completely (as the Amish do). They know that most people don't believe in Jesus' teachings enough to actually DO them. It's beneficial for the politicians: they tell people to go to church on Sunday (that gets them their votes), and then tell them to support all their political agendas on Mon-Sat.
But if we followed Jesus, politics and politicians would be unnecessary, because everyone would love his neighbor as himself.
This is a post that strikes me as worthy of a response.
Brian,
You are so right.
In America, we are free to choose what and how to believe, and what and how to worship. But it goes beyond mere politics and religion. Religion to me is a disgusting word. Not that it started off that way, but like the church, has become this way.
We are born with rights. These rights come from our Creator. Even the Atheist doesn't acknowledge existence granted from the state. So, we are born into this world. It is ours. It isn't anyone else's. Who we choose to follow, and who we elect to lead us, is still based upon the power that each of us have, as human beings. Still, the power of choice.
People of certain faiths, including Chirstianity, think it is their personal duty to graft the world into their beliefs. Why? What makes the Indian so wrong, verses the hermit in the hills? If we are truly free, then we are free indeed. The ONLY way to relinquish this freedom, is to grant it to another, or be conquered by force.
The Amish are outside the system. They operate as the only free people living in these united States. They hold no corporate status, including social security cards, birth certificates, and need no permission from the government to conduct business. They pay no taxes, hold no office, and own their lands outright. They are free, because they have but 1 King.
But, you are right. They are few. And they are not a threat.
The early Christians felt the same way. They were outside Rome's political forces, and thereby accepted nothing in ways of privilages and benefits. Rome felt this to be a threat, because their power derived from force, and since force could not persuade the early Christians to join them, they were slaughtered by the thousands, even as sport.
This government was set up in a way that kept the balance of power within the people. Not the state. Is it this way, today? So, by the trickery of lawyers and judges, they have stripped the people of their TRUE power, and purpose. They have forsaken their King, and followed another. So, we reap what we sow. We will fall, and our children will remain enslaved until the day arrives that they revolt.
Our children are born into bondage. They have a debt load of about $120,000 just by being born. They are traded and sold on the stock market, and held as collateral to the banks. Why do you think it is callled the 'public debt'? There is no material collateral, as WE are the collateral. It has been this way since Egypt, when Joseph betrayed the Egyptians into slavery. Well, he did feed them, but the cost of feeding was that they lost EVERYTHING including their own freedom. This story is the first reminder of how society works.
Try living off the land today. Try being free and independent. It is impossible, unless you move onto someone else's land or take their goods. Growing your own food requires tribute in the form of real estate taxes due yearly to the land masters. Owning your own business requires you to succumb to the monetary policies dictated to us by the federal reserve banks, or IMF.
So, our goodly loss is their evil gain.
But the day will arise when the King will have had enough, and will come to liberate HIS people. After all, this land is HIS land, and we are HIS people.
Men try to do this today, even in America. They are called cults, freaks, anarchists, etc. The amish are looked at as the remanants of the old way, and the by-gone yester years. Society considers them the same way I just described, and one day, it will come to a head for them. After all, those with power want it ALL. and if there is some they do not have, they will either be tricked into giving it up, or it will be taken from them.
We give up freedom for:
Bread. We need to eat, right?
Security. We want to be given the illusion of security, even if it is just that. An illusion.
Money. How many have traded their freedoms for riches? After all, with money, their is also an illusion of freedom. Freedom to what one wants, when they want. Freedom that depends on taking it from another, because how else would one aquire mass wealth, without stripping it from someone else, either by trade, or force?
Notice these 3 things. Bread, Security, and Money.
What was Jesus Himself tempted with?
Now you can SEE what freedom actually is. It is the freedom to just say:
Spoiler
NO!! I have but 1 King, and His Name is ABOVE ALL others!!! Jesus Christ!!
Hi Hot!
I recall your responses to the thread a while back about Christian Anarchism, and I was sure you'd respond here. Glad you did!
We were all born free; I totally agree.
"The ONLY way to relinquish this freedom, is to grant it to another, or be conquered by force." I think this is what most of Christendom has done. They have no kingdom, nor a vision. They leave that to the politicians! Church has become a "low-impact" activity, that doesn't influence people's decisions about real-life activities; what matters is getting into heaven later on. But everything in this earthly realm has no importance. If the government says to support nuclear power, the people do it. (And thank God for it on Sundays.)
If the government tells people to go kill others in a far off country, they do it. (And ask God's protection as they carry it out.)
If the government tells people to set up a puppet government in another country for private interests, the people do it. (And bring the Bible to do "missionary activities.")
Don't know if you've read the news.. now Italy has "joined the bandwagon" and plans to bomb Libya. Seems that Obama has "encouraged" Italy to give a "helping hand." I wonder if the Catholics will protest? The Pope is silent, of course..
--But did I vote for Italy to bomb Libya? NO! I have no desire to bomb them! Jesus commands us to love our enemies, not bomb them.
I hate it when people (namely politicians and religious leaders) try to put words in my mouth.
Religion cannot be entirely separated from government simply because people carry their religious convictions into the polling booth.
However, according to the Constitution, the state (government) may not deny someone the right to worship how he pleases (or not at all), nor can it favor one religion over another.
The rub comes one one religion or another attempts to re-make the government in its own image. Usually, that's some form of Christianity talking about "taking America back for God," or, "putting God back into America."
That kind of dangerous talk is based upon the premise that God has left us or, more correctly, that we've thrown Him out of His own creation. Not only is that a silly idea, but it's physically impossible.
There is a strain of Christian politics which is fostered by those who are followers of the teachings of R.J. Rushdoony and they are the ones causing all the turmoil.
Among other things, Rushdoony believed the Bible tells us that we believers have to get God's house in order before Jesus returns. We must set up His physical Kingdom or He can't come back. That belief translates into efforts to "Christianize" the whole world, starting in America, and one of the vehicles they've chosen to work through is our political system. They've been actively at work trying to impose "Christian order" on society via the courts, laws and through the machinations of the Republican Party for a few decades now.
They have been successful enough that too many believers now can't separate their faith from their politics and we are in danger of being led down the path to a Theocracy, one very much like radical Islamic nations, but under a different God.
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