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Maybe someone can explain something to me. Why is it so important for some people to try so hard to prove that Jesus is not God? I don't get it. I think the scriptures are pretty clear that Jesus is God.
I'm sorry, Ilene. The trinity doctrine is just one of those things that has weighed heavily on my mind for many years and for many reasons (just like the doctrine of hell did). I do not believe the scriptures are at all clear about any trinity, and I believe many of those supposed verses that explain or hint toward a trinity were translated through people with a trinitarian bias, reek of old pagan concepts and Greek philosophy, and contradict hundreds of other verses (and worst of all, logic, which I believe God is very fond of ). I'm working on a rather long post right now, which I will finish soon, where I'm attempting to explain why I do not believe Jesus is God, although I do believe he is the savior of the world.
Last edited by herefornow; 11-03-2010 at 07:05 PM..
In the book of Acts, Peter the Disciple gives a sermon that appears to reflect the EARLIEST Christian view of Jesus. He says in Acts 2:36:
"Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made the same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ."
Later in the same book (Acts 13:32-33), Paul has this to say:
And we declare to you glad tidings—that promise which was made to the fathers. God has fulfilled this for us their children, in that He has raised up Jesus. As it is also written in the second Psalm:
‘ You are My Son, Today I have begotten You.’
Note that the "raised up" refers to Jesus' alleged resurrection mentioned in verse 30. To the early Christians, Jesus becomes the "son of God" after the resurrection. Before that he was a mere man that God empowered to do great things who was killed by the religious leaders in his prime. God thus, vindicates him by raising him from the dead and then giving him an elevated title - son of God.
Did the early Christian stop there? No. It was an easy leap from there to believe that Jesus must have been the son of God even earlier than that. For those, the belief was that Jesus became the son of God at his baptism. Not surprisingly, the Gospel of Mark, the first Gospel reflect this. In Mark 1:11 at Jesus' baptism, God thunders down the confirmation that Jesus is his son. Here, it does not mean that a "son" in a father participating in a sexual act to bring about a son. "Son," in biblical terms can mean a variety of things, simply one chosen by God to do his will on earth as a type of intermediary. Outside of this, the book of Mark gives no idea that Jesus is more than just a special man, chosen of God at the start of his ministry to be his agent (anointed messiah/son) on earth. There is no Virgin birth or Christmas story involved or needed and so Mark begins with Jesus' adult ministry when he is officially anointed as son of God.
The progression moves from there when we get to the later Gospel of Luke, for example. Here Jesus is the son of God at his birth. Luke then goes on to provide an explanation as to how this was possible and the explanation is found in the oft disputed and incredulous story of the "Virgin birth." Jesus comes into existence AT his special birth when the Holy Spirit of God impregnates Mary.
By the time the Gospel of John rolls around years after the appearance of Mark's Gospel, Jesus is regarded as more than just a mere man who is chosen by God to do his bidding. His has no genesis and has always been with God and frankly, is God himself by extrapolation. He THEN comes into the world AS God in human flesh even though john does not tell us how. We are left to assume John is working with the understood version that he was born of a virgin, but actually existed in eternity past.
This view became the standard within later Christianity. Jesus was the preexistent Word of God who became flesh. As we have seen, however, this was apparently not the original view held by the early Christians. The divinity of Jesus was a later Christian invention found only in one Gospel, John.
First of all, this thread is not an invitation for skeptics and critics who don't even believe in God to attempt to discredit the Bible. To do so is to take the thread off topic. Keep any attempts to debunk the word of God off of this thread.
Now. All four Gospels refer back to Isaiah 40:3 which foretells the coming of the Messiah and calls Him God. ''A voice is calling, ''Clear the way for the LORD (Yah-weh) in the wilderness; Make smooth in the desert a highway for our God (le·lo·hei·nu - Elohim) 4] ''Let every valley be lifted up, And every mountain and hill be made low; And let the rough ground become a plain, And the rugged terrain a broad valley. 5] Then the glory of the LORD wil be revealed, And all flesh will see it together; For the mouth of the LORD has spoken.''
Upper case lettering is per the NASB.
Matthew 3:3 'For this is the one referred to by Isaiah the prophet, saying, ''THE VOICE OF ONE CRYING IN THE WILDERNESS, 'MAKE READY THE WAY OF THE LORD, MAKE HIS PATHS STRAIGHT!'' The Gospel of Matthew was written between 50-60 A.D.
Mark 1:1 'THE beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God. 2] As it is written in Isaiah the prophet, ''BEHOLD, I SEND MY MESSENGER BEFORE YOUR FACE, WHO WILL PREPARE YOUR WAY; 3] ''THE VOICE OF ONE CRYING IN THE WILDERNESS, 'MAKE READY THE WAY OF THE LORD, MAKE HIS PATHS STRAIGHT.' '' Notice that Mark calls Jesus the Son of God. The Gospel of Mark was written between 50-55 A.D.
Luke 3:4 ''THE VOICE OF ONE CRYING IN THE WILDERNESS, 'MAKE READY THE WAY OF THE LORD, MAKE HIS PATHS STRAIGHT. 5] EVERY RAVINESHAL BE FILLED UP, AND EVERY MOUNTAIN AND HILL SHALL BE BROUGHT LOW; AND THE CROOKED SHAL BECOME STRAIGHT, AND THE ROUGH ROADS SMOOTH; 6] AND ALL FLESH SHALL SEE THE SALVATION OF GOD.'' The Gospel of Luke was written before 62 A.D.
John 1:23 'He said, ''I Am a VOICE OF ONE CRYING IN THE WILDERNESS. 'MAKE STRAIGHT THE WAY OF THE LORD, 'as Isaiah the prophet said. The Gospel of John was written between 85-90 A.D.
All four Gospels identify Jesus Christ with Isaiahs prophecy in Isaiah 40:3 in which the Messiah is called God. All four Gospels attest to the deity of Christ.
However, each Gospel emphasizes a different aspect of Jesus.
Matthew presents Jesus as King.
Mark presents Jesus as a servant.
Luke presents Jesus as the Son of Man. (His humanity).
John presents Jesus as the Son of God. (His deity).
But all four Gospels recognize the deity of Jesus Christ.
Now let's please have no more attempts to debunk the Bible on this thread. That takes the thread off topic.
First of all, this thread is not an invitation for skeptics and critics who don't even believe in God to attempt to discredit the Bible. To do so is to take the thread off topic. Keep any attempts to debunk the word of God off of this thread.
Now. All four Gospels refer back to Isaiah 40:3 which foretells the coming of the Messiah and calls Him God. ''A voice is calling, ''Clear the way for the LORD (Yah-weh) in the wilderness; Make smooth in the desert a highway for our God (le·lo·hei·nu - Elohim) 4] ''Let every valley be lifted up, And every mountain and hill be made low; And let the rough ground become a plain, And the rugged terrain a broad valley. 5] Then the glory of the LORD wil be revealed, And all flesh will see it together; For the mouth of the LORD has spoken.''
Upper case lettering is per the NASB.
Matthew 3:3 'For this is the one referred to by Isaiah the prophet, saying, ''THE VOICE OF ONE CRYING IN THE WILDERNESS, 'MAKE READY THE WAY OF THE LORD, MAKE HIS PATHS STRAIGHT!'' The Gospel of Matthew was written between 50-60 A.D.
Mark 1:1 'THE beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God. 2] As it is written in Isaiah the prophet, ''BEHOLD, I SEND MY MESSENGER BEFORE YOUR FACE, WHO WILL PREPARE YOUR WAY; 3] ''THE VOICE OF ONE CRYING IN THE WILDERNESS, 'MAKE READY THE WAY OF THE LORD, MAKE HIS PATHS STRAIGHT.' '' Notice that Mark calls Jesus the Son of God. The Gospel of Mark was written between 50-55 A.D.
Luke 3:4 ''THE VOICE OF ONE CRYING IN THE WILDERNESS, 'MAKE READY THE WAY OF THE LORD, MAKE HIS PATHS STRAIGHT. 5] EVERY RAVINESHAL BE FILLED UP, AND EVERY MOUNTAIN AND HILL SHALL BE BROUGHT LOW; AND THE CROOKED SHAL BECOME STRAIGHT, AND THE ROUGH ROADS SMOOTH; 6] AND ALL FLESH SHALL SEE THE SALVATION OF GOD.'' The Gospel of Luke was written before 62 A.D.
John 1:23 'He said, ''I Am a VOICE OF ONE CRYING IN THE WILDERNESS. 'MAKE STRAIGHT THE WAY OF THE LORD, 'as Isaiah the prophet said. The Gospel of John was written between 85-90 A.D.
All four Gospels identify Jesus Christ with Isaiahs prophecy in Isaiah 40:3 in which the Messiah is called God. All four Gospels attest to the deity of Christ.
However, each Gospel emphasizes a different aspect of Jesus.
Matthew presents Jesus as King.
Mark presents Jesus as a servant.
Luke presents Jesus as the Son of Man. (His humanity).
John presents Jesus as the Son of God. (His deity).
But all four Gospels recognize the deity of Jesus Christ.
Now let's please have no more attempts to debunk the Bible on this thread. That takes the thread off topic.
So Mike, what you want is TOTAL agreement to what you are saying? You want NO disagreement, no other points of views, huh?
I'm sorry, Ilene. The trinity doctrine is just one of those things that has weighed heavily on my mind for many years and for many reasons (just like the doctrine of hell did). I do not believe the scriptures are at all clear about any trinity, and I believe many of those supposed verses that explain or hint toward a trinity were translated through people with a trinitarian bias, reek of old pagan concepts and Greek philosophy, and contradict hundreds of other verses (and worst of all, logic, which I believe God is very fond of ). I'm working on a rather long post right now, which I will finish soon, where I'm attempting to explain why I do not believe Jesus is God, although I do believe he is the savior of the world.
No, that's okay herefornow, I am just perfectly happy believing that Jesus is the Son of God and part of the Trinity. You might be right, I just feel in my heart that the Bible is right about this one. I don't feel it's necessary to argue about it either way. But we all have to deal with what bothers us, don't we?
So Mike, what you want is TOTAL agreement to what you are saying? You want NO disagreement, no other points of views, huh?
The deity of Jesus Christ and the validity of the Bible are two entirely different topics. Do not hijack other peoples threads in your attempts to debunk the Bible.
Last edited by Michael Way; 11-04-2010 at 08:45 AM..
You will not hijack my thread in your attempts to debunk the Bible. For one thing it is off topic. Use your own threads. You may have noticed that some of your posts on the other thread no longer exist. If you want to argue that the scriptures don't support the deity of Christ, then do so. But do not attack the validity of the Bible in doing so.
I thought I was doing that in part and where did I attack the validity of the bible? Of course, in your world, any attempt to disagree with YOUR view of the scriptures would be seen as an "attack." You fail to realize that even though I may no longer be a believer there are even other Christians here who do NOT see things the way you do. If all you want is people to agree with you, then just say so.
All I have done so far is to show you FROM THE BIBLE that what you believe is not what is really there.
I thought I was doing that in part and where did I attack the validity of the bible? Of course, in your world, any attempt to disagree with YOUR view of the scriptures would be seen as an "attack." You fail to realize that even though I may no longer be a believer there are even other Christians here who do NOT see things the way you do. If all you want is people to agree with you, then just say so.
All I have done so far is to show you FROM THE BIBLE that what you believe is not what is really there.
No, you have not. I refuted your argument. You have indeed attacked the validity of the Bible by for one thing attempting to reduce God to a simple tribal deity that is the creation of the Jews. And by implying or saying right out that the Jews copied from the Sumarians. That is off topic and hijacks the thread. Use your own threads for that junk.
No, you have not. I refuted your argument. You have indeed attacked the validity of the Bible by for one thing attempting to reduce God to a simple tribal deity that is the creation of the Jews. And by implying or saying right out that the Jews copied from the Sumarians. That is off topic and hijacks the thread. Use your own threads for that junk.
Mike, you miss the VERY simple points of my posts, sir. VERY simple. You say the Bible says blah blah blah and I show you that what the Bible says [in part] is bascially an edited Jewish version of OLDER myths. I am NOT lying or making it up. This has to be placed on the table of debate when one tries to establish a relatively recent concept within the religious arena. Yes, it does undermine your glorious view of how you THINK things are when in fact, you could not be more wrong.
Your precious views did not develop in a vacuum and all I am doing is showing or hinting at, the progression from older, ancient polytheism/henotheism to Jewish monotheism and Christian Trinitism.
No, that's okay herefornow, I am just perfectly happy believing that Jesus is the Son of God and part of the Trinity. You might be right, I just feel in my heart that the Bible is right about this one. I don't feel it's necessary to argue about it either way. But we all have to deal with what bothers us, don't we?
Thanks for understanding, Ilene. You are right. Arguing without truly listeningdoesn't really help anybody. I like a good debate, as that is how I learn, but getting hateful, calling other people enemies of the truth and enemies of God because they won't agree with you is pretty sad. That kind of attitude led to the inquisitions, wars, and who knows what else.
I'm sorry, Ilene. The trinity doctrine is just one of those things that has weighed heavily on my mind for many years and for many reasons (just like the doctrine of hell did). I do not believe the scriptures are at all clear about any trinity, and I believe many of those supposed verses that explain or hint toward a trinity were translated through people with a trinitarian bias, reek of old pagan concepts and Greek philosophy, and contradict hundreds of other verses (and worst of all, logic, which I believe God is very fond of ). I'm working on a rather long post right now, which I will finish soon, where I'm attempting to explain why I do not believe Jesus is God, although I do believe he is the savior of the world.
And he is THE SON OF .... GOD
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). I'm working on a rather long post right now, which I will finish soon, where I'm attempting to explain why I do not believe Jesus is God, although I do believe he is the savior of the world.
