How can Chicago keep residents long-term? (Naperville, Lincoln: town-house, neighborhoods, buyers)

[chet everett]

...that the 15% of foriegn born kids in Chicago are WAY over represented in the top performing high schools as a fraction of population. Even more interesing is how many of those kids did not come through the entire selective elementary schools.

It really is far less about "resources" in the "how much money distict spends" sense and more about the kinds of resiliency / drive that some kids learn from their immigrant experience.

Honestly the details that Ravitch lays out in her book are very clear -- schools that have an ingrained "opposition to change" ought to be closed and reconsitutied as charter schools. The CTU remains very much opposed to this and very much about giving protection to the teachers displaced from shuttered / reconsititued schools.

Anyone "blowing the horn" that there is some kind of "lack of PR" or ignoring of turn around schools is either clueless of the datat that IS OUT THERE ore perhaps willfully stretching the truth. I often cite the FACT that the Illinois mandated test are generally quite WEAK and schools that fail to get a SIGNFICANT majority of their students to meet / exceed the low bar are flat out doing a poor job. In the same vein I believe it is instructive that the State Honor Roll does recognize both a sizable number of CPS schools for Academic Excellence Academic Excellence Awards 2011 and Spotlight Schools that perform much better than other with similarly challenged demographics / improve rapidly -- Spotlight Schools 2011 . I recommend parents seek out the schools on the Excellence list if they are relocating with school age children. If one is fortunate to have time before enrolling their children in school and otherwise would be served by a local school that makes the "Spotlight" list it MAY work out that the improvements continue and the school will eventually be even better...

[Magpie1127]

Originally Posted by Attrill

I think the good schools do a decent job of PR where it matters - to prospective parents. Every school fair we went to was packed with CPS schools that represented themselves very well. Before we began looking at schools we really didn't know much about the CPS schools around us, but as soon as we started looking they were right there and did a great job of giving tours, answering questions, etc.

Their PR to the general public is certainly lacking, but imagine the backlash if CPS suddenly added a couple million to it's budget for PR. Maybe I'll start a thread titled "Rahm spends $3 Million on PR for CPS" and see the response

Haha. Touche.

[citylove101]

Millennials will stick with the cities as long as they can get their kids educated. Kids are the big dividing line. Without them, schools aren't a really big issues. But these folks know that much more so than in the past, education will be key to their kids having a decent life, and if they can't find good schooling in the city they'll leave, especially if they have more than one kid, 'cause private school tuition for one might be doable for many folks, but for two or three, it's doable for fewer and fewer families.

But I have to admit, I've never quite figured out why the middle-class seems so much less invested in the public schools in Chicago than they are in my hometown. Our public schools have problems, God knows. I'm not trying to downplay that in the least. But with all that, it still seems as if middle-class here (NYC) appears to be much more invested in public education than what I've seen when I come to Chicago. I have no 'data' to base that perception on, just many conversations I've had in both cities.

But whether they stay or go will depend mostly on the schools, I think. Pricing is a smaller factor. Low(er) taxes in the city + private schools, or high(er) taxes in the 'burbs and public schools can in many cases be a wash.

[Ilovehockey85]

Originally Posted by Aleking

The delaying kids trend certainly is real…I'm almost 29 and don't have a single friend my age with a kid.

Amen.

[Chi-town Native]

Originally Posted by JacksonPanther

Why is the education any different? Don't they all (in Illinois) teach to the same curriculum? Are they teaching something different in Winnetka than in Chicago?

If I up and moved my family to Paris, people would think my kids would be better off - bi-lingual, citizens of the world, whatever. But when kids come here from other countries we use it as an excuse to allow them to fail.

Too many excuses, not enough high expectations.

I'll proceed assuming this is a serious question, even though I have my doubts...

People who come to America & put their kids in public schools in cities like Chicago are poor.

Poor as in, my local school has 90% of the kids at or below the poverty level. 50% of them come from non-English speaking households.

If you think these kids are being taught the same curriculum children in Winetka are (or even the same curriculum kids at Ogden or Nettlehorst are) I have multiple bridges to speak with you about.

[Chi-town Native]

Originally Posted by citylove101

But I have to admit, I've never quite figured out why the middle-class seems so much less invested in the public schools in Chicago than they are in my hometown. Our public schools have problems, God knows. I'm not trying to downplay that in the least. But with all that, it still seems as if middle-class here (NYC) appears to be much more invested in public education than what I've seen when I come to Chicago.

Why do you think that?

Middle class and upper class people in Chicago have been getting involved and improving the public schools in their neighborhoods for up to 25 years.

The problem is poorer kids can't afford to live in those neighborhoods, so what we don't have is a "rising tide lifts all boats" kind of thing. Parents that get involved in their local school aren't helping kids on the other side of town (nor v.v.), the change must be forced one school at a time.

I truly believe the major problem is our reliance on property taxes to fund the schools. Thus, when property taxes go up across the board, the impact is more keenly felt by people on moderate and fixed incomes (poorer people and retirees).

Where NYC seems to be friggin' brilliant by way of comparison is by having a municipal income tax which funds public education. I tried researching that a bit but didn't have a lot of luck, I'd love to learn more about that, as my friends who have moved to Brooklyn tell me it's a far, far better system than Chicago.

[Magpie1127]

Originally Posted by Ilovehockey85

Amen.

Weird. I'm only 24 (no kids for me, obviously) and I have quite a few friends who already have kids. Some are married, some not. I think that what defines our generation isn't our lack of doing "adult" things, but the remarkable amount of lifestyle diversity within our generation. It's hard to stereotype our decisions because we are really all very different ... probably due to quite a lot of factors.

ETA: Meant to quote both you and PP that you quoted, sorry about that!

[slim04]

NYC v. Chicago. A lot of it is that it is simply easier to move to the burbs and live the American dream in the Chicago area than it is in Metropolitan NYC.

The suburbs surrounding NYC are really expensive or are very crime-ridden. The metro area butts against population and jobs centers in Newark, Greenwich, and Philly. There just isn't as much available space for moderately priced suburban housing. So middle class families are much more willing to live in diverse neighborhoods in the city, put down roots, and work to improve their situation. Plus, NYC is much bigger than Chicago, so a lot of places like Queens and Brooklyn actually resemble suburbs in Chicago.

In Chicago, the only major city nearby is Milwaukee and it doesn't sprawl southwards toward Chicago. There is tons of available farmland to convert to suburban housing and an extensive commuter train network that deposits most people near their place of work without having to switch trains or systems. So housing costs are much less expensive and you can have a decent school, low crime, and an OK commute for $300K for a house or townhouse in nicer areas. If you could easily find that in NYC, tons of those middle class folks in the city would probably abandon the city as well once they have kids.

Plus the job market isn't concentrated in downtown Chicago like it is in Manhattan. There are as many Fortune 500 headquarters in suburbs as there are in the city. There are much more factories in the suburbs as well.

[chet everett]

Look ago, when Chicago still had LOTS of good paying manufacturing jobs there was a belief on the part of the Chicago Democratic Machine that property taxes could be higher on non-residential parcels to help keep the "burden" of home owners light. That drove many firms to expand outward into the collar counties. That expansion and shift of jobs has only recently begun to be stemmed and there is shift of non-industrial jobs back to the real estate of the Loop and surrounding areas.

The somewhat odd geographic features of Chicago not having any real "bypass ring" type expressway was also arguably due to the political fights between those in the collar counties and Chicago congressional leaders agreeing to have the TriState tollway run down the county line. The suburbs inside Cook Co have not really fared as well in terms of job growth as those outside...

While there are some differences in how the overall scale of population is funneled into a tighter geography and politics of suburban NY play out I believe there are also similarities between how areas like Westchester Co or Long Island have signficantly different patterns of development than NYC...

(btw -- Philly?? Better get a new map...)

Originally Posted by slim04

NYC v. Chicago. A lot of it is that it is simply easier to move to the burbs and live the American dream in the Chicago area than it is in Metropolitan NYC.

The suburbs surrounding NYC are really expensive or are very crime-ridden. The metro area butts against population and jobs centers in Newark, Greenwich, and Philly. There just isn't as much available space for moderately priced suburban housing. So middle class families are much more willing to live in diverse neighborhoods in the city, put down roots, and work to improve their situation. Plus, NYC is much bigger than Chicago, so a lot of places like Queens and Brooklyn actually resemble suburbs in Chicago.

In Chicago, the only major city nearby is Milwaukee and it doesn't sprawl southwards toward Chicago. There is tons of available farmland to convert to suburban housing and an extensive commuter train network that deposits most people near their place of work without having to switch trains or systems. So housing costs are much less expensive and you can have a decent school, low crime, and an OK commute for $300K for a house or townhouse in nicer areas. If you could easily find that in NYC, tons of those middle class folks in the city would probably abandon the city as well once they have kids.

Plus the job market isn't concentrated in downtown Chicago like it is in Manhattan. There are as many Fortune 500 headquarters in suburbs as there are in the city. There are much more factories in the suburbs as well.

[55degrees]

Aside from getting a good education, a lot of American parents want their kids to have a safe place to play without supervision. In the burbs, not only do you have your own yard (which can be fenced off if the kids are young and you want them to stay in there), but parents really don't think too much about their kids riding up and down the sidewalks in the area unsupervised or even around the block or to their friend's house a few minutes away. By the time you're 10 years old, you can be out after dark playing "kick the can" with your friends in the summers. This is really limited to single family homes and town-houses. I don't think kids in apartments, even in the suburbs, can do all of the above.