How can Chicago keep residents long-term? (Westchester, Winnetka: middle-class, real estate, how much)

[Magpie1127]

Originally Posted by Chi-town Native

I no longer can take any opinions about CPS seriously from those who don't have kids in the system or who aren't teaching there.

I don't mean this as an insult to folks like Chet, I just think the entire system has dramatically changed in the past 10 years, at least on the North Side (*not saying it hasn't on the South, but I'm not there so I don't know). A lot of complaints which were legitimate 10 years ago just are no longer fair critiques.

If this is the case, CPS seriously needs a PR professional. As someone who doesn't have children in CPS, I know nothing about these or any other improvements. All outsiders hear about are teachers union strikes and bad reputations. I say this honestly - I believe you, but they need to spread the word if this is the case.

[Vlajos]

Originally Posted by Magpie1127

If this is the case, CPS seriously needs a PR professional. As someone who doesn't have children in CPS, I know nothing about these or any other improvements. All outsiders hear about are teachers union strikes and bad reputations. I say this honestly - I believe you, but they need to spread the word if this is the case.

Most people are too lazy to look into things.

[chet everett]

I have friends that are still CPS teachers. A lot of them are pretty good at what they do and would love to have the kind of support that places like Nettlehorst and others have been able to garner. The sad fact is that there are many more teachers and an awful of principals that not only do not embrace such change but actively invoke "union rules" to make sure that things do not change. Even worse is that the strike really failed to put any sort of closure around the very bad situation that exists when schools are closed / consolidated. CTU rules give preference in hiring to teachers with the longest service NOT any objetive measure of how good a teacher they are or how willing to accept change they might be. There are teachers that will go out of their way to not select a "known quantity" ineffective teacher but that requires extra work for principals especially when there are known holes in the evaluation and reporting of which teachers are truly awful. It is not exclusively a CPS thing either, there are plenty of under performing schools in a large number of districts where kids are not the priority of the teaching staff, the district leadership or the broader community -- in too many instances the various power plays are designed not to enhance student learning but to make salaries / benefit higher, dole out jobs / contracts to friends and shrink tax burden...

If you choose to bury your head in the sand and ignore these facts that is your own decision but the result of failing to ensure that all kids have a shot at a really good education will certainly come back to bite everyone.

[Vlajos]

Originally Posted by chet everett

If you choose to bury your head in the sand and ignore these facts that is your own decision but the result of failing to ensure that all kids have a shot at a really good education will certainly come back to bite everyone.

Until our society can come up with a better way to help along those 80% of CPS kids (and their families) who are low income, there just is not much any teacher is going to be able to do.

[Chi-town Native]

Originally Posted by Magpie1127

If this is the case, CPS seriously needs a PR professional. As someone who doesn't have children in CPS, I know nothing about these or any other improvements. All outsiders hear about are teachers union strikes and bad reputations. I say this honestly - I believe you, but they need to spread the word if this is the case.

100% in agreement.

[Chi-town Native]

Originally Posted by Vlajos

Until our society can come up with a better way to help along those 80% of CPS kids (and their families) who are low income, there just is not much any teacher is going to be able to do.

Yep. Schools don't exist in a vacuum, and it's hard to envision how (or why) a society that doesn't seem particularly concerned with income inequality for people from ages 18 - 80 is ever going to prioritize equal opportunities for students, which would cost a bloody fortune and then some.

Chicago is 15% foreign-born. Just imagine the kind of resources it would take to give a 1st generation American kid (growing up in a family where a language besides English is spoken) the same kind of education a kid is going to get in Winetka.

[udonsoup]

Originally Posted by chet everett

It is nuts to think that developers and even regular old home owners that routinely see buyers JUMPING OUT OF THEIR SKIN to buy places well above $300K but under about $700K would scale all the way down to $150... That sort of target price is really more likely to happen in parts of Chicago that are currentlu overrun with crime AND?OR so far from anything "happening" that they are completely off the radar...

I think the issue of affordability is certainly possible The era of HUGE sprawling lots way in the country is largely incompatable with the realities of long commutes and high fuel costs. The appeal of well designed homes of moderate size and just enough outdoor space for little kids to play in a protected area, families to enjoy summer cookouts and pet owners to let their dogs and cats sniff around the yard can be achieved for reasonable prices IF there is appropriate encouragement to keep things in scale and allow for some more modern building technologies. I think some of this is part of the MSI "green demonstration home" but that thing would likely push well past $500K Museum of Science and Industry | Smart Home: Green + Wired ...


As to schools there are two approaches that make a lot of sense. The book by Jacqueline Edelberg about what steps she and her neighbors followed to turn Nettlehorst from a pretty awful school into a model for parent and teacher cooperation is laid out in "How to Walk to School" -- How to Walk to School: Blueprint for a Neighborhood School Renaissance: Jacqueline Edelberg with Susan Kurland

But what happens when you don't have enough parents with college backgrounds / committed to getting crummmy school overhauled AND you have the CTU that really really really really really has shown just how stubborn they are when it comes to giving up control of teacher retention based on just years of seniority? Well the latest book by Dianne Ravitch lays out a pretty good analysis of why many efforts of reform do not work. She is a "radical centrist" -- earned a PhD not in education but in the History of Education, served BOTH Bill Clinton & George H.W. Bush. She offers a strong argumment that too many efforts to promote total "selective admissions" and "all stick, no carrot" type national standards have worsened conditions in many disadvantaged schools. Theese schools probably would benefit from a true "try whatever you can / just get the kids involved" approach that would hand over control of these "failing" schools to the charter schools so that kids in the most impoversed areas are not held hostage by dysfunctional organizaed labor policies and then work their successe back into the system -- The Death and Life of the Great American School System: How Testing and Choice Are Undermining Education: Diane Ravitch

I think we simply need better family planning and a better view of education from a cultural standpoint. Charter schools don't have a track record of massive improvement over public schools. Also if the same type of kids from the failing school are going to the charter school nothing will change unless the environment makes up for the shortcomings at home.

One of the odd things about american culture is a very heavy sense "do your own thing/be a rebel" combined with a lack public shame/criticism. Our society looks down at dysfunctional family structures but heavily dislikes public criticism of it.

As an extreme measure I always wondered if financially tying children's performance in school to welfare/benefits would actually make a big difference.

[Attrill]

Originally Posted by chet everett

I have friends that are still CPS teachers. A lot of them are pretty good at what they do and would love to have the kind of support that places like Nettlehorst and others have been able to garner. The sad fact is that there are many more teachers and an awful of principals that not only do not embrace such change but actively invoke "union rules" to make sure that things do not change.

I asked this before - what specific union rules are being invoked at schools to prevent parent involvement and Nettlehorst style changes? What are the schools where this is happening?

If your problem is with school closure policies, well, the subject is providing good schools for the children of college educated parents, not closures of the worst CPS schools. Anyways, closures are run by CPS not the CTU. Having more input into that process is part of what the teachers were striking for.

Originally Posted by chet everett

CTU rules give preference in hiring to teachers with the longest service NOT any objetive measure of how good a teacher they are or how willing to accept change they might be.

By "objective" I assume you mean testing. I'm surprised you support that, since you linked to the Ravitch book (which is excellent BTW). Her book is a scathing condemnation of high stakes testing - do you mean something else by "objective". She fully supports the CTU and supported the strike, calling it a "very important moment in current history".

I am truly confused by the contradictions in what you're saying in your posts, you seem to be advocating the reforms in the books you linked to, but then you're just kind of going on an anti union rant that's disconnected from the topic at hand or the subjects of either of the books you linked to.

[JacksonPanther]

Originally Posted by Chi-town Native

Chicago is 15% foreign-born. Just imagine the kind of resources it would take to give a 1st generation American kid (growing up in a family where a language besides English is spoken) the same kind of education a kid is going to get in Winnetka.

Why is the education any different? Don't they all (in Illinois) teach to the same curriculum? Are they teaching something different in Winnetka than in Chicago?

If I up and moved my family to Paris, people would think my kids would be better off - bi-lingual, citizens of the world, whatever. But when kids come here from other countries we use it as an excuse to allow them to fail.

Too many excuses, not enough high expectations.

[Attrill]

Originally Posted by Magpie1127

If this is the case, CPS seriously needs a PR professional. As someone who doesn't have children in CPS, I know nothing about these or any other improvements. All outsiders hear about are teachers union strikes and bad reputations. I say this honestly - I believe you, but they need to spread the word if this is the case.

I think the good schools do a decent job of PR where it matters - to prospective parents. Every school fair we went to was packed with CPS schools that represented themselves very well. Before we began looking at schools we really didn't know much about the CPS schools around us, but as soon as we started looking they were right there and did a great job of giving tours, answering questions, etc.

Their PR to the general public is certainly lacking, but imagine the backlash if CPS suddenly added a couple million to it's budget for PR. Maybe I'll start a thread titled "Rahm spends $3 Million on PR for CPS" and see the response