Westchester/Villa Park (high school, suburbs, racist)

[Lookout Kid]

Originally Posted by BRU67

I knew what you meant. You are totally correct.

I agree with you too... I'd like to see a rosier future for Westchester, but can it really survive as a town where everyone goes to the nearby Catholic high schools? I'm not saying that it's future is sealed as the new Maywood, but I think that it could possibly start to resemble city neighborhoods on the Northwest and Southwest sides (with different housing stock and lots sizes, of course).

But none of us have a crystal ball, I suppose. It's not like Proviso West High School just suddenly got bad yesterday. It's been rough for decades now, and Westchester has remained a peaceful, well-maintained suburb in spite of it. If it had a Metra stop I would feel better about its prospects.

[oakparkdude]

Originally Posted by Lookout Kid

I agree with you too... I'd like to see a rosier future for Westchester, but can it really survive as a town where everyone goes to the nearby Catholic high schools? I'm not saying that it's future is sealed as the new Maywood, but I think that it could possibly start to resemble city neighborhoods on the Northwest and Southwest sides (with different housing stock and lots sizes, of course).

But none of us have a crystal ball, I suppose. It's not like Proviso West High School just suddenly got bad yesterday. It's been rough for decades now, and Westchester has remained a peaceful, well-maintained suburb in spite of it. If it had a Metra stop I would feel better about its prospects.

Are you using the comparison to the NW and SW sides as a positive? One advantage these neighborhoods have is a captive city workforce (cops. firefighters, etc) who have to live somewhere in the city, regardless of the quality of schools. What comparative advantage does Westchester have? LIke you said, it doesn't even have a Metra stop.

[Lookout Kid]

I don't know, I'm just talking out of my @ss. I should have gone to bed when I fell asleep in my living room at 9:30. I guess I just imagine Westchester having a more working class racially mixed population in the future without descending into all out ghetto-dom.

[chet everett]

The job factor is huge. The trends in employment for the "less white collar" jobs that sustained many generations of those that might have had only some college continue to decline. Manufacturing plants have smaller and smaller employment numbers, with frontline management being drawn the ranks of those who have shown talent in the trenches. Similarly the worlds of the trade unions continue to shrink, with more and more shops laying it on the line that the choice is not "union or scab" but open shop or jobs leave forever. The construction related unions did better, with the mandated "prevailing wage laws" giving governmental employment no advantage to hiring non-union, but as those coffers continue to be drained and the boom times for construction shift toward a bust of indefinite length there are no real guarantees.

The "tradition" aspects that may have sustained the private high school(s) will bump-up against the reality of increasing costs at some point too. If people have to pay more to move into Westchester than Cicero AND they have to pay for school that will limit the spend they can make for private schools.

On the other hand nothing is carved in stone. Maybe the public schools will improve. Maybe there will be some business people that do take advantage of the infrastructure of the greater west Cook burbs and grow employment. Maybe Westchester will make an effort to offer a safer, quieter, more upscale community to those that want it. Lots of things would need to go a certain way...


In some ways Villa Park is not a lot better off, but the advantages it has start with its neighbors -- Elmhurst really is a very desirable town, Lombard has a lot going for it, heck even Addision seems to be working hard to offer its residents the combination of housing that is as safe as the town can make it and wide range of employment. The housing stock is mostly 'fresher' and that is something that says to me more people are willing and able to put money into their home. A good sign, and one that ties right back into the schools and taxes. Those who would decry the Property Cap Tax (that DOES fall on Villa Park, as it is in DuPage Co...) really are not in touch with the reality of the cap. It has been around for a LOOONG time now, and schools have had to adjust to the modest limits on increases it imposes OR go to referendum. The record of referenda in DuPage Co post-tax cap is not too bad, and when the community is convinced the money is needed the odds of passage have not been too bad. The question will undoubtedly be tested as to whether voters will be so understanding in the face of declining property value due to the wide spread reversals in real estate. Hard to predict...

[Humboldt1]

Perhaps the OP should drive up and down north avenue near Syms and the 5 Star Bingo. This is old retail that is headed in the wrong direction. I compare Villa Park to Hanover Park, not an area I would move to.

Westchester is a little better, but definitely has its challenges and is much cheaper than some of its neighbors. I like that Villa Park has a Metra stop but that is about all I like about Villa Park. I would definitely go for Elmhurst or Lombard instead.

[BRU67]

Originally Posted by chet everett

There are no caps on the taxes in Cook Co, of which all of Westchester lies entirely inside. Further the problem would not be a need for new schools, but significant deterioration in the ratio of "tax payers to tax consumers". That is the reason that one must look at both the raw numbers of spending per pupil, broken out as both instructional and operational costs, AS WELL AS the trend of district finances expressed as "Equalized Assessed Valuation" pre pupil to understand why a town like Cicero is about half as "rich" as even Chicago, while a town like Highland Park is more than twice as well off:
Interactive Illinois Report Card
Interactive Illinois Report Card
Interactive Illinois Report Card

There is a tax cap -- PTELL. It holds that school districts may not increase property taxes more than the rate of inflation, plus taxes for new construction. When there's massive demographic changes in a community that include a lot of new children, the cost to provide education will increase more than the 1-2% CPI, especially if the influx is lower income (more special needs and LEP children).

Ex-burbs can of course tax to build new schools and annex land to address their population increases. Urban areas are stuck with the CPI increase as their sole means to absorb additional expenses. That's fine in a stagnant world but doesn't give much flexibility to the urban areas we should be trying to revitalize!

I think what you may have meant is that school districts can get around PTELL via referendum. That's technically true but good luck in practice, especially in a town like Westchester with a lot of voting seniors who are not going to want to pay more for something they're not using.

I think the overall consensus is to be somewhat leery of Westchester at this point in time. Sadly, I can't say that's illogical. As Sukwoo says, there are really no solid public transit options in Westchester and it's not particularly convenient to the Loop or other job corridors. The housing stock is ok but not earth shattering. In this market, the types of houses there are probably suprisingly affordable in places like Orland Park, Downers Grove or even Elmhurst.

[chet everett]

Yeah, I sort was playing with "caps" and making fun of the way that C(r)ook Co dreams up new taxes that seem to be ways around the intent of PTELL.

The fact is that living in an area with a questionable amount of EAV/pupil is no bargain, and should the shifts in demographics happen that would see lots more residents /voters that would go to referendum the rates could soar...

[BRU67]

Originally Posted by chet everett

Yeah, I sort was playing with "caps" and making fun of the way that C(r)ook Co dreams up new taxes that seem to be ways around the intent of PTELL.

The fact is that living in an area with a questionable amount of EAV/pupil is no bargain, and should the shifts in demographics happen that would see lots more residents /voters that would go to referendum the rates could soar...

I still think it's highly unlikely that residents in the vast majority of communities will approve referenda that cause taxes to skyrocket. We're going on the 20th anniversary of Berwyn's population shift from seniors to younger residents and it still can't get a educational funding referendum passed to save its a--! I hope this changes but thus far, no success.

This is probably very un-Republican of me but I think urban school districts should be given more flexibility to raise their tax levy. Exburbs have grown like blobs because our taxing system allows them to annex farmland, build subdivisions there and tax existing residents to build new schools to service these new “neighborhoods.”

Most urban communities that shift to younger populations have no room to build new schools and cannot annex land. So they thus end up more people in the same housing stock. And because of PTELL, they can’t sufficiently raise taxes to cover the greater need for services (not just education but police and fire, trash pick up, etc.). That, of course, is a major part of the reason why changes in the ratio of "tax payers to tax consumers" are so detrimental to urban areas.

[Lookout Kid]

Originally Posted by Humboldt1

Perhaps the OP should drive up and down north avenue near Syms and the 5 Star Bingo. This is old retail that is headed in the wrong direction. I compare Villa Park to Hanover Park, not an area I would move to.

The health of retail districts is a terrible indicator of community stability. Retail plays by it's own rules, and often fails in communities that are otherwise stable and safe. And it doesn't end with pedestrian retail strips... There are "dead malls" all over the country in otherwise healthy communities.

[Tammy4772]

Thanks for all of the input. We are going to drive to Westchester today and look around several of the different areas. I figure with it being a nice day out today there should be some people out so we can get an idea of the areas and maybe even talk to to few people. In a couple of weeks we will go look at the Villa Park area.