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In cook county, more expensive homes have higher taxes. Taxes in cook county are mostly determined by the property's value and there is a slight variance of local rates. Property taxes in cook county are based on what your house is worth, based on what you and your neighbors actually paid for your homes. If you paid less for your home and now homes in your area are selling for considerbly more, then the property taxes on your home will go up. I would love to pay less of course or nothing at all, but that is the way that taxes work. If an area has high property taxes on average it is because the homes in that area tend to be more expensive homes, and the owners of those homes paid on average a certain amount for those homes. What do you get for your taxes if you live in a high taxed area? Nothing much other than to live in a more attractive area free of blight, nicely paved roads, etc. It has more to do with living in a higher income area were on average the homes are more expensive. You get what you pay for. Cheaper homes have less taxes and there are plenty of areas in cook county were the homes are cheap and the property taxes are very low on the average home.
Last edited by allen2323; 12-09-2010 at 10:09 AM..
Do you think Indiana could make more progress (economically and culturally) if Indiana had higher taxes and used it to invest in services and infrastructure?
Thanks.
No
There are TONS of roads in Chicago and the Chicagoland area that DO NOT COME CLOSE to meeting their "capacity" according to IDOT. Chicago is one of the WORST traffic bottlenecks in America. The generous pensions offered to teachers is close to bankrupting our state. The park system is not all that great, although that is more of a product of our geography than out tax structure. Social saftey nets do not improve an area economically. The roads are well plowed and salted though.
Sorry, I am one of the nay-sayers you probably dislike, but if you live in Cook County and actually pay attention to what is going on, you quickly learn that if you give the government more money, they will most likely squander it by either using it extremely inefficiently or hiring their nephews and cousins to cushy high-paying government jobs. Indiana appears, from my POV, to be doing better economically, as rating agencies are not struggling to see how quickly they can lower the rating on your debt.
In cook county, more expensive homes have higher taxes. Taxes in cook county are mostly determined by the property's value and there is a slight variance of local rates. Property taxes in cook county are based on what your house is worth, based on what you and your neighbors actually paid for your homes. If you paid less for your home and now homes in your area are selling for considerbly more, then the property taxes on your home will go up. I would love to pay less of course or nothing at all, but that is the way that taxes work. If an area has high property taxes on average it is because the homes in that area tend to be more expensive homes, and the owners of those homes paid on average a certain amount for those homes. What do you get for your taxes if you live in a high taxed area? Nothing much other than to live in a more attractive area free of blight, nicely paved roads, etc. It has more to do with living in a higher income area were on average the homes are more expensive. You get what you pay for. Cheaper homes have less taxes and there are plenty of areas in cook county were the homes are cheap and the property taxes are very low on the average home.
Don't forget about property tax levy. They have nothing to do with the value of your house or land, but whether or not your local goverment has passed some sort of referendum.
I would be more likely to call NW Indiana home for a long time if:
- We had top-quality parks and recreation centers, with programs for all ages
- The schools paid better salaries to teachers and administrators so we could attract and retain better teachers and administrators
- Roads were expanded and improved to handle the existing amount of traffic more safely
- If Indiana plowed the snow and salted like you do on the Illinois side of the border. We slide around all winter. When I lived in Illinois I remember all the main streets and expressways being salted.. and early.
- Indiana provided a better safety net for those in need (social services and medical.) Unfortunately, I've had acquaintances who have had to use those systems and didn't get the support they needed. I'm not suggesting that the system should give anyone a life of luxury, only that it supply help more easily for those who really need it.
If you're an Illinois resident, what benefits do you feel you get from paying higher taxes?
Do you think Indiana could make more progress (economically and culturally) if Indiana had higher taxes and used it to invest in services and infrastructure?
Thanks.
having lived in both Illinois and Indiana I can judge both. In my book Indiana does the job far better.
--my park district here in Indiana blows the park district of the village I was in Illinois out of the water. The park district in Illinois was so corrupt and busy with helping relatives of politicians rather then being a park district. It had almost nothing in spite of a very large budget.
--Teachers in Indiana are not underpaid. The unions may say so, but teacher pay isn't horrible in either state. A starting teacher is making at least high 20's-low 30's at least. If top money is your top career goal in life, teaching isn't a job you should be looking at. Teachers in Indiana make fine money.
--I don't think its a bigger problem on the Indiana side of the border. Yes, there are places that need more roads, but it isn't just a N.W. Indiana problem. Actually Indiana is in a better position to add (or fix) roads as money from things like the toll road lease makes money available (Major Moves). It repaved my road, which was in far better condition before construction, then the road by my old house which is full of potholes that nobody fills.
--Most of the towns in Indiana plow as much as Illinois and clear the roads as fast. We also get far more snow as well, as lake affect dumps more snow here then it does in Illinois. The interstate could be better, but several environmental groups forced the highway department to use something more environmentally friendly. Its a combination of several things with very little salt. It doesn't work as well as regular road salt, and doesn't work at all when the temp goes below 10 degrees or so. So I wish they would use regular salt. I think its dangerous.
--Have to disagree with you on this one too. I truly think we do the poor a great disservice by allowing the government to try to do charity work. It's been clear to me (and a lot of other people) that no government can really do the job. State employees end up trying to protect their jobs and departments instead of helping people. Private charities do far more with far less money and with far less waste and don't require so many dumb rules. We once had thousands of charity groups a hundred years ago, that would help the poor with a hand up. Today we have a government "charity" that keeps poor people poor. It also keeps charities from doing their jobs by co-opting them. I doubt your relatives would have been happy with Illinois social services either it just the way it is.
1. When I was a Illinois resident I felt I got crummy services for a very high price. It is one of the reasons for leaving. High taxes do not insure better services, in fact it may cause the opposite.
2. No, higher taxes would not advance Indiana. We have good basic services at an much more affordable price. Our infrastructure is probably in better condition then Illinois.
If you think Illinois is better, please move back, I for one don't want Illinois politics and high taxes here in Indiana. When I moved to Indiana, I chose to be happy with what Indiana provides and I am. They do a far better job then Illinois.
Chuckity, I'm just getting accustomed to Valpo (having just lived in this city since fall) and the YMCA is on my list of places to visit soon. It does look great. I always seem to miss the season for Taltree and for the Michigan City Zoo... I always seem to think about it right after they close for the winter.
As far as the roads I didn't like when first moving to NWI in 2000, and still don't like now: 149 south (two lane, lots of blowing and drifting snow like you mentioned), 30 from LaPorte County to the Illinois line (no median barrier, terrible traffic flow with fast moving speeds and the sudden stoplights), 49 between Valpo and Chesterton (I like this road except it has no median barrier), 6 from Hobart to Westville (with people unendingly trying to impede and slow down the expansion), 12 and 20 (should be four lanes with medians and better lighting too.) I'd argue that our major roads are not as improved, well-signed, or well-lighted, as Cicero Ave., Harlem, La Grange Road in Illinois. I grew up where every road had streetlights and part of me still thinks that roads should be that way and if they don't then something's wrong with them. As my downstate friend said to me once, he freaks out when he has to drive next to a concrete barrier because in his world, thats just unimaginable. I freak out if the barrier ISN'T there.
I saw Mayor McDermott from Hammond raised some questions about the pace of installing the I-65 median wire barrier, that was in today's paper. Sounds like he was frustrated with INDOT, but, he got an answer, and the state is moving forward with the construction in January.
Richb, if thats the story about the salt issue on the expressways then that really is unfortunate and puts a lot of people at risk.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chuckity
I grew up in Chicago & the south suburbs ... I thought the same thing when we first moved out here. So I get where you're coming from.
Thanks for that.
So, after all of this, I still can't figure out why I feel that Indiana doesn't provide enough. Only thing I can put it on is that I've lived in some depressed blocks/neighborhoods in NWI and it might be for that reason that I haven't had the best experience. The state doesn't embrace our region either, and if you care about such things, that gets to you after a while. So does the lack of pride here. If everyone was as emphatic as Chuckity about this region, we would be right up there with Chicago's pride.
Maybe I'm just yearning for those big city lights, broad shoulders, and faster pace in order to feel good. I've figured out that I'm an aspirational type of personality. Even when my reality doesn't match up with that, I still have that in me (and I can usually laugh at myself when my aspirations don't match my reality.)
But other than a handful of folks I've known here, I get the feeling that most folks here aren't too aspirational. People are pretty grounded here, and we do have some civic-mindedness, but there's not a whole lot of dreamers. To Chet — I think socioeconomics/education is part of this, but part of this is just whether you're a dreamer, whether you aspire to things or not. Chicago and its burbs seem to aspire to a lot. Whether they ever get where they claim to be going (and whether the towns aspire on the backs of all the people who pay taxes), I can't say. But when I'm not around people and towns that are aspiring to be something greater, I get a little down. The contrast of coming to NWI from Chicago, and then coming home to NWI after being away at college, well, its a big contrast.
Its interesting we haven't heard from anyone on this thread who's defended the Illinois taxation levels, other than Chet who suggested its possible to get value from Illinois taxes if your town puts people in charge who can maintain some ethics and handle the challenge.
Maybe its smart to rent in Illinois (during my rental years) and take advantage of what I perceive as high investment in infrastructure and such, but when I'm finally ready to buy, to purchase something just on the Indiana side of the state line. I haven't ruled out moving somewhere else in the country eventually, but the next move will probably be fairly near. I'm considering the inner ring of suburbs, Oak Park, Berwyn, I've always liked Mt. Prospect for some reason, but that's still going to be a few months away.
Chuckity, I'm just getting accustomed to Valpo (having just lived in this city since fall) and the YMCA is on my list of places to visit soon. It does look great. I always seem to miss the season for Taltree and for the Michigan City Zoo... I always seem to think about it right after they close for the winter.
As far as the roads I didn't like when first moving to NWI in 2000, and still don't like now: 149 south (two lane, lots of blowing and drifting snow like you mentioned), 30 from LaPorte County to the Illinois line (no median barrier, terrible traffic flow with fast moving speeds and the sudden stoplights), 49 between Valpo and Chesterton (I like this road except it has no median barrier), 6 from Hobart to Westville (with people unendingly trying to impede and slow down the expansion), 12 and 20 (should be four lanes with medians and better lighting too.) I'd argue that our major roads are not as improved, well-signed, or well-lighted, as Cicero Ave., Harlem, La Grange Road in Illinois. I grew up where every road had streetlights and part of me still thinks that roads should be that way and if they don't then something's wrong with them. As my downstate friend said to me once, he freaks out when he has to drive next to a concrete barrier because in his world, thats just unimaginable. I freak out if the barrier ISN'T there.
I saw Mayor McDermott from Hammond raised some questions about the pace of installing the I-65 median wire barrier, that was in today's paper. Sounds like he was frustrated with INDOT, but, he got an answer, and the state is moving forward with the construction in January.
Richb, if thats the story about the salt issue on the expressways then that really is unfortunate and puts a lot of people at risk.
Thanks for that.
So, after all of this, I still can't figure out why I feel that Indiana doesn't provide enough. Only thing I can put it on is that I've lived in some depressed blocks/neighborhoods in NWI and it might be for that reason that I haven't had the best experience. The state doesn't embrace our region either, and if you care about such things, that gets to you after a while. So does the lack of pride here. If everyone was as emphatic as Chuckity about this region, we would be right up there with Chicago's pride.
Maybe I'm just yearning for those big city lights, broad shoulders, and faster pace in order to feel good. I've figured out that I'm an aspirational type of personality. Even when my reality doesn't match up with that, I still have that in me (and I can usually laugh at myself when my aspirations don't match my reality.)
But other than a handful of folks I've known here, I get the feeling that most folks here aren't too aspirational. People are pretty grounded here, and we do have some civic-mindedness, but there's not a whole lot of dreamers. To Chet — I think socioeconomics/education is part of this, but part of this is just whether you're a dreamer, whether you aspire to things or not. Chicago and its burbs seem to aspire to a lot. Whether they ever get where they claim to be going (and whether the towns aspire on the backs of all the people who pay taxes), I can't say. But when I'm not around people and towns that are aspiring to be something greater, I get a little down. The contrast of coming to NWI from Chicago, and then coming home to NWI after being away at college, well, its a big contrast.
Its interesting we haven't heard from anyone on this thread who's defended the Illinois taxation levels, other than Chet who suggested its possible to get value from Illinois taxes if your town puts people in charge who can maintain some ethics and handle the challenge.
Maybe its smart to rent in Illinois (during my rental years) and take advantage of what I perceive as high investment in infrastructure and such, but when I'm finally ready to buy, to purchase something just on the Indiana side of the state line. I haven't ruled out moving somewhere else in the country eventually, but the next move will probably be fairly near. I'm considering the inner ring of suburbs, Oak Park, Berwyn, I've always liked Mt. Prospect for some reason, but that's still going to be a few months away.
1. I get your lighting issue. When I moved from the city to the suburbs - I thought Homewood was so dark. And then out to Valpo ... it did freak me out for a while. I really think you're a city chick as most parts of the country, once you get outside of urban areas, aren't really well lit. For one, it's expensive as all get out.
2. Here's the thing with Porter County ... residents have a huge amount of pride in their towns. They just don't like change by big, leaps & bounds. For the most part, they don't want to be the next Naperville - and they're realistic .. they know they can't have the positives without the negatives that come along with it. And they sure as hell don't want negatives if they can help it. And it's not that they don't aspire - and it's not if they've "settled" either .... it really is a great quality of life out here and they're content. This may have to do with your age as well ... your younger years are for dreaming big and taking chances. Which is great! Creating a family and home doesn't lend itself well to chance taking. KWIM?
No place is perfect ... I've lived in Chicago, downstate IL, Evanston, Burr Ridge & Homewood (as well as a few other suburbs, another state and out here in Indiana) ... but overall, Valpo wins for the stage of my life that I'm in. Maybe for this stage in YOUR life, you need someplace else.
This is a very interesting thread as we are thinking of moving to another state at some point in time, as we may not be able to afford retirement in IL (our current state) because of the property tax issue - if they keep increasing. Although in retirement there are other issues like: does the state tax pension and social security.
NW Indiana is a consideration for us
IL is great for culture's sake - even in the burbs it is very accessible. Although even the suburban cultural events are getting to be out of our budget Let alone going to a play in Chicago itself. Yikes.
I have to say IL snow removal is pretty good.
The corruption and lack of transparency here is disturbing. And the pension fund debacle is truly the most troubling part of IL.
I actually disagree with a few of your statements ... I'm just going to address them in red above. Now, that's not to say that every town in NWI is a big ball of awesomeness - there are some with HUGE problems. But I wanted to focus specifcally on Porter county since you brought it up and even more specifically on Valpo.
My taxes are less than they were 10 years ago. Shocker, right? In that time, taxes on our old house in Homewood have more than doubled.
I definitely feel the quality of life is better here, crime is lower, schools are better ... overall, I'm quite pleased with the bang for less buck.
(I should also add that we own several properties in Illinois - in every case, in every town, taxes have increased and the quality of life in those areas have decreased. I never think more taxes is the answer.)
I agree here. Residents of high tax states have nothing to show for their higher taxes except higher tax bills. Many of the deep blue high tax states (CA, IL, NY, NJ although they're improving, CT, etc) do not offer higher quality of life than states that don't tax their residents as much. As may have said, high taxes are often used to fund crony capitalism, vis state employee unions, crooked politicians and their friends donors, contractors and to buy votes from people living off the dole.
If you WANT to pay higher taxes, don't let me stop you. Just let the rest of us have a few places where the Government is not constantly reaching into our pockets!
I'd argue there has to be a middle ground, and some state somewhere must have found that middle ground. I don't have anything to back that argument though
I've also read (it was on a thread discussing Lansing, IL I think) that communities are sunk (over the long haul) when they don't have visionary leadership. But enacting a vision takes funding.
One argument could be that successful communities have ways of raising money to enact their visions beside taxes... which would mean working very dilligently to establish appropriate TIF districts, get grants, get projects funded by the US Senate & House, build coalitions among their stakeholders... which Northwest Indiana appears to be working on (GRIP and Marquette Plan.)
Is it a better strategy to seek out a mixed bag of funding sources than to rely on taxes as a way to develop a community? I guess that with taxes, if a tax increase passes, its a sure thing and you know the money will be there and the projects will get done. If you rely on a disjointed mashup of grants, TIF money, state funding, loans and bonds, federal funding - it seems less certain that a project will ever reach completion within a reasonable timeframe.
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As my downstate friend said to me once, he freaks out when he has to drive next to a concrete barrier because in his world, thats just unimaginable. I freak out if the barrier ISN'T there. 
And then out to Valpo ... it did freak me out for a while. I really think you're a city chick as most parts of the country, once you get outside of urban areas, aren't really well lit. For one, it's expensive as all get out.
Let alone going to a play in Chicago itself. Yikes.
