California poised to ban plastic bags (Banning: recycle, places, grocery)

[Clarks]

It is about the concern many of us have about the ever growing power of government at all levels to regulate, control, and dictate what we as citizens can and cannot do. It is about the expansion of statism...

If your society is not a "band" or a chieftainship, you are a statist, and you like it. or you would move to the back hills of New Guinea. Governments have always regulated, controlled and dictated what people can do, that is why they are called governments.

The hand of the US government lies heavier on the people than, say Mexico, but less than say, Belorus, there are many degrees of government control around the world, if this government annoys you, pick another.

[Curmudgeon]

Originally Posted by Joe_Ryder

My mistake. Apparently the Barred owl is the one driving out the Spotted owl (not the lumber industry) and the barred owl followed people west. I stand corrected.

But in my own defense, I did read some time back in a respected wildlife mag that the spotted owl was considered a subspecies of the Mexican spotted owl.

Kool! The spotted owls are obviously reconquista, illegal aliens from Mexico and the barred owls must be from Arizona!

Glad I'm living where all we have are undocumented Canadian geese!

[BlackShoe]

Originally Posted by Clarks

if this government annoys you, pick another.

We are, by a process known as a free election. We are having one in November and another in 2012.

[wburg]

Originally Posted by KC6ZLV

Umm, there are several types of biodegradable plastic bags which could be used to replace the current ones. You can actually throw them in your mulch, if you are a gardener. Additionally, this type of plastic can be used to package food (the material used in #2 plastics isn't permitted to be used for food packaging). However, the pseudo-intellectuals are more interested in forcing a European lifestyle on everyone.

If the concern is plastic going into landfills there are many things that can be done to reduce the volume of plastic going into the trash. How about that hard plastic packaging that every item larger than a USB memory stick is encased in. You know the ones that require the use of axe to open? Most of those items could be sold in minimal "whitebox" packaging. Many could be sold in bulk with no packaging, and consumers wouldn't have to pay for packaging. It would also reduce theft, saving the retailers some money. You could pay for the item and they hand it to you at the counter. People would actually appreciate this, especially the ones with arthritis, and I'm positive more than a few retailers would jump on the opportunity to sell items like this. Fry's has wanted to do this, but they've found few products they could sell like this because a lot of the junk packaged in China where they don't care, or the manufacturer is more concerned about pretty packaging than a quality product.

How about fast food items? They could put all the items on one paper plate instead of individual boxes for the hamburger, fries, chicken and whatever else people buy at those places. Of course, this only solves the problem of people being served in the restaurants. Junk food "to-go" requires individual boxes for each item. I see fast food containers all over the place every day. I see maybe one or two plastic bags a week where I live. In some other places I see many more. Mainly in the bad neighbourhoods where the people are too fat, lazy and ignorant to pick them up.

Some great ideas there--I don't agree with the suggestion that the bag ban is based on people who want to force a "European lifestyle" on Americans (people used reusable bags before there were disposable shopping bags here, too) but there is an awful lot of pointless waste, it is done primarily because it makes money, even if it doesn't make sense. Obviously, it is possible to come up with and implement more than one idea to encourage the "reduce" portion of that "reduce-reuse-recycle" triangle. And if the packaging we had to deal with was minimal, we could fit even more product into our reusable shopping bags!

[Gentoo]

Originally Posted by wburg

That concern is matched by the concern many of us have about the ever growing power of corporate consumerism to poison, putrefy, pollute and destroy what we as citizens eat, drink, breathe in and live on. It is about the expansion of the corporate state, or whatever other label you choose to define it as. To use just a couple of analogies, we are suffering The Death of a Thousand Cuts, or that of the frog in the gradually heating pot of water. Except instead of being a convenient straw-man metaphor, our bodies actually are being poisoned, our water polluted.

All this rhetoric about the magic of the free marketplace is nice, but the market doesn't self-regulate pollutants: it pretends they don't exist, or downplays their problems. Plastic bags are convenient and cheap, which is why people use them, but the consequences of their use is something we're going to have to deal with, either by limiting their use now or dealing with the environmental mess they're making later. In most cases, it's easier to clean up a small mess than a big one, and this mess won't get any smaller if we continue the way we are.

I resent the idea that people have an inherent right to be lazy slobs, to pollute indiscriminately, to destroy not through malice or ill will but through ignorance and apathy. We have rights as people, but is the right to burn through a trillion disposable plastic bags every three years among them?

[CantWait2Leave]

I only buy eco friendly cleaning supplies, shampoo, soap, tissue etc.. but I use plastic. Seems totally hypocritical? This thread has made me WAKE UP! I will no longer use plastic bags.

[KC6ZLV]

Originally Posted by wburg

Some great ideas there--I don't agree with the suggestion that the bag ban is based on people who want to force a "European lifestyle" on Americans...

I mentioned this because there was some conference years ago where the use of biodegradable bags was suggested. The speaker who was in favor of banning plastic bags replied with a statement that Europeans don't use plastic bags of any type, and we shouldn't use them here.

It doesn't make sense to me. If plastic not breaking down in the environment is the problem, then what is the problem with "plastic" bags made of other materials which will break down?

The key to all this is recycling. I do what I can, but my efforts are usually trashed by people who rummage through the recycle can and move all the random recyclables and throw them into the regular trash in search of CRV bottles and cans.

[Voyageur]

Originally Posted by KC6ZLV

I mentioned this because there was some conference years ago where the use of biodegradable bags was suggested. The speaker who was in favor of banning plastic bags replied with a statement that Europeans don't use plastic bags of any type, and we shouldn't use them here.

"years ago"?

Plastic bags are used in Europe:
Shopping bag - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
In many European countries, plastic shopping bags were also free and common well into the 21st century, and as of 2010 still are common, but their use is becoming less and less widespread, partly due to environmental legislation, which has led retailers to charge for single use plastic shopping bags. The Republic of Ireland for example imposed a dedicated plastic bag tax, thus forcing retailers offering plastic bags to charge for them.[1]

So, either that speaker was confused, or you are. And you should have known better. Europe consists of dozens of countries, from fairly prosperous western democracies such as the UK to autocratic regimes such as Russia to marginally developed places such as Albania and Moldova. The idea that "Europe" is all acting on concert, or that some place like Belarus could care one whit about the environmental problems caused by plastic bags is laughable.

Regardless, you base a movement on what one speaker at one conference says? Really? You know, thousands of different people will have thousands of different reasons for doing something. Claiming that one such reason that you heard "years ago" at a conference is the basis for a policy is nonsensical, to put it mildly.

Talking about reaching for a reason to oppose something!

[Gentoo]

So, either that speaker was confused, or you are. And you should have known better. Europe consists of dozens of countries, from fairly prosperous western democracies such as the UK to autocratic regimes such as Russia to marginally developed places such as Albania and Moldova. The idea that "Europe" is all acting on concert, or that some place like Belarus could care one whit about the environmental problems caused by plastic bags is laughable.

But I think "Europe" as it's used here refers to EU countries which largely do act as one unit. Russia is not an EU country. I don't believe Albania and Maldova are either.

[Voyageur]

Originally Posted by Gentoo

But I think "Europe" as it's used here refers to EU countries which largely do act as one unit. Russia is not an EU country. I don't believe Albania and Maldova are either.

I thought of that - but then, the poster should say the EU instead of Europe of he means the EU. After all, over 200 million Europeans live outside the EU. Anyway, some EU states ban some plastic bags (non-biodegradable) and others don't - this issue is decided at the state level.