California poised to ban plastic bags (disposal, to live in, air quality)

[NewToCA]

I'm fine with high quality paper bags made out of mostly recyled paper. Plastic bags often tear, and I found that I need to use many more bags than when I was packing paper bags.

Charging a nickel for paper bags is just silly. Stores should just choose to handle this as they see fit.

More to the core point though, many of us believe that Gov't intervention into everyday life is waaaaaaayyyyyy excessive, and resent it.

Should be an interesting November.

[Gentoo]

Originally Posted by Voyageur

Indeed, the freedom of grocery stores to bag groceries with plastic grocery bags! That's how the Red Terror began, right?!

Tell us, do you similarly oppose the Clean Water Act because it erodes your freedom? It does, after all. So do laws that have improved the air quality level in many places, including southern California, over the past few years. And is it increasing? Well, duh. There were only 50,000 Californians at statehood. There was just a touch over a million in 1890. There were 10 million in 1950. More people means more use of shared resources such as land, air and water. Compounding the issue is that while the population has grown, the per capita consumption of those resources and well as the per capita production of air, water and land waste has also increased. It only stands to reason increased regulation of those resources and practices that impact them will result.



Well, welcome to a society that doesn't want to pretend it's 1850, 1890 or 1950. Do you think it should be lawful to just dump all your trash down a canyon somewhere? You know, that used to be legal. How about hydraulic mining, that devastated water downstream? That used to be legal. How about we eliminate all emissions controls? Emissions regulation doesn't date back to the founding of this state or this country, you know. All those things restrict your ability to act in certain ways. Do you oppose, on principal, such types of laws?

If you do, then have at it. Good luck on getting the Tea Party to roll them back.

And if you don't oppose them, then perhaps you'd explain how a law like the Clean Water Act, which is far more sweeping and impactful than a law which merely compels grocery stores to stop using plastic bags, is acceptable while the latter is not?

I really hate when people like you post good stuff before I can +1

[Mr. Fantastic]

Dang, Black Shoe just got destroyed.

[Joe_Ryder]

I will be glad to see those things gone. I live in the San Francisco metro (East Bay) and those things are everywhere.

I do find the whole thing amusing because it was the environmentalists who were pushing plastic 35 years ago to save the trees.

Then there was the MTBE thing. By adding crap to gas in winter the environmentalists were convinced that it would lower hydrocarbon emissions. Well it did and it only took a few years to realize that the MTBEs were leeching into the groundwater and washing into and poisoning the Bay. Now gasahol has been banned.

It's funny to see things come full circle. When I was a kid, people either carried their own grocery bags or used paper supplied by the stores. My mom used her own bags because weak paper was a disaster waiting to happen. Milk came in recyclable glass and sodas had a fully refundable deposit.

While I applaud the passion of environmentalists it pains me no end to see them and their fervor continually manipulated by corporate interests via pseudo-science and cooked books. I've seen entire industries destroyed to save an invasive subspecies of bird so that now useless land could be bought cheap by developers. Then came the MTBE problem. Then the plastic bag problem and of course we have the newest climate change crisis. Again, I admire the desire to help the planet but thinking things through and doing a little bit of fact checking before marching with signs might be prudent.

[Gentoo]

I've seen entire industries destroyed to save an invasive subspecies of bird so that now useless land could be bought cheap by developers.

What invasive subspecies of bird was attempted to be saved? The migratory bird treaty does not protect non native/invasive species. Also the three very successful invasive species do not occur in subspecies, they are monotypic.

[Joe_Ryder]

Originally Posted by Gentoo

What invasive subspecies of bird was attempted to be saved? The migratory bird treaty does not protect non native/invasive species. Also the three very successful invasive species do not occur in subspecies, they are monotypic.

How about the Spotted owl?

[mysticaltyger]

Originally Posted by Lifeshadower

I do applaud this move, since plastic bags seem to accumulate in my house nowadays anyways (which we reuse as trash bags or any other kind of bag).

However, the most environmentally sound thing to do is ban all humans since its those species of mammals that have a penchant for polluting everywhere. Wait..if some legislator is reading this website, I was kidding. Please don't propose something like that.

I honestly wish there was some sort of invention to get rid of the damn smog.

LOL, funny thoughts. As for the smog, it has been reduced greatly over the last 30 years, and even today's smog levels are significantly lower than 10 years ago. Since the decline of smog is gradual, and doesn't go down in a perfect straight line every year, people tend not to notice how much cleaner the air is.

[Joe_Ryder]

Originally Posted by mysticaltyger

LOL, funny thoughts. As for the smog, it has been reduced greatly over the last 30 years, and even today's smog levels are significantly lower than 10 years ago. Since the decline of smog is gradual, and doesn't go down in a perfect straight line every year, people tend not to notice how much cleaner the air is.

Absolutely! While I tend to shun government involvement in most everything, I have to admit that the greenish dome that once enshrouded LA and was visible on I-10 for a hundred miles or so is no longer there. I only lived in LA for a short time and since my visits are few and far between, the improvement to me is quite obvious.

The environment is a very complicated issue for me. On one had I really dislike government intrusion but on the other it's sometimes needed for the world we live in. Sometimes we just have to make a choice between two bitter pills.

But on the OTHER hand... Yes, I am a mutant with 3 hands. Just like Chuck Norris, I have no chin but a 3rd fist concealed under my beard. ... It was technology and the cheap computer that allowed far more efficient electronic fuel injection to replace the expensive and wasteful carburetor. So it's debatable as to whether government regulation or simple market forces had more influence on the recent rise in air quality in Southern California.

[Gentoo]

Originally Posted by Joe_Ryder

How about the Spotted owl?

Well the spotted Owl is not an invasive species. It's a native species. Native species should be in their habitats as they are part of the food chain which, like it or not or believe it or not, does effect people and our pets. Spotted Owls are important for rodent control, especially certain ones that carry diseases which can effect people, pets and livestock. Predators are very important in an ecosystem.

Now, you would have been completely correct had you not said invasive subspecies. The race (pseudonymous with subspecies here) is unique to the coastal forest areas. But it was here long before we were.

[Joe_Ryder]

Originally Posted by Gentoo

Well the spotted Owl is not an invasive species. It's a native species. Native species should be in their habitats as they are part of the food chain which, like it or not or believe it or not, does effect people and our pets. Spotted Owls are important for rodent control, especially certain ones that carry diseases which can effect people, pets and livestock. Predators are very important in an ecosystem.

Now, you would have been completely correct had you not said invasive subspecies. The race (pseudonymous with subspecies here) is unique to the coastal forest areas. But it was here long before we were.

My mistake. Apparently the Barred owl is the one driving out the Spotted owl (not the lumber industry) and the barred owl followed people west. I stand corrected.

But in my own defense, I did read some time back in a respected wildlife mag that the spotted owl was considered a subspecies of the Mexican spotted owl.