Supreme Court to take up same-sex marriage (houses, taxes)

[ryuns]

Originally Posted by lillypie

Exactly. There's certain protections/benefits that marriage provides i.e. regarding taxes/insurance rates/hospital visitation/military/death benefits...etc. which is why I think marriage is so important in the legal sense.

I will add just on a personal level, a close friend just had a marriage ceremony with her longtime partner in CA. Having lived outside of CA for yrs. I actually had to look up whether marriage was legal for gay couples & I was disappointed to see it wasn't. They have been together since college, bought a house together, are looking into adopting. I've heard several arguments against gay marriage but I just don't get how people believe her relationship is any less loving or valid than my marriage.

I also heard a news report recently that if Prop. 8 was voted on today in CA it would not pass. I agree just based on the opinions of family/friends who live in the state but I'm curious what others think.

There seems to be a really interesting paradigm shift in the way the public is viewing this debate. Basically, there haven't been any compelling arguments against gay marriage that aren't based on the Bible. So now you have conservatives like Bill O'Reilly who have come out in tentative favor of gay marriage based on the fact that the Bible is not a good basis for policy in a secular society which has decided that the government does have a role in marriage and defined the benefits and protections that stem from that. It also seems, and I could be proven wrong, that the Supreme Court doesn't have a great legal basis for upholding DOMA. Prop 8 could still stand, mostly from a state's rights perspective, they'd have to rule (a) that the defendants have legal standing to present the case (the current active ruling is that the lower courts have struck it down, and California will not defend the law) and (b) that equal protection doesn't apply, and there's some legitimate state interest in restricting this right from certain people.

[cardinal2007]

I think the main reason prop 8 would go back for a vote (really a proposition to repeal prop 8) if DOMA is overturned, but prop 8 is upheld, is that then you would have a huge difference between people that are married and those are in domestic partnerships, mainly that if you're married you get federal level rights that go along with marriage.

I don't know how a vote would go today if it were held today (instead of 2014 or 2016), but I would imagine the same issues would show up again as in the prop 8 vote in 2008, we should expect at least $5M to come from Utah to defend prop 8. Last time both sides raised around $40M, about 1/3 from out of state, I imagine next time closer to $30M for each side. California has over 10% of the US population, it is a big deal outside the state as well it seems.

[Oleg Bach]

So this is a legal question and not a social or moral one?

[18Montclair]

Originally Posted by cardinal2007

I think the main reason prop 8 would go back for a vote (really a proposition to repeal prop 8) if DOMA is overturned, but prop 8 is upheld, is that then you would have a huge difference between people that are married and those are in domestic partnerships, mainly that if you're married you get federal level rights that go along with marriage.

I don't know how a vote would go today if it were held today (instead of 2014 or 2016), but I would imagine the same issues would show up again as in the prop 8 vote in 2008, we should expect at least $5M to come from Utah to defend prop 8. Last time both sides raised around $40M, about 1/3 from out of state, I imagine next time closer to $30M for each side. California has over 10% of the US population, it is a big deal outside the state as well it seems.

If it gets to that, then I hope some zealots dont resort to harrassing people for spending their own money to participate in a political cause they care about, just because they disagree with you. That was shameful and disgusting.

[ryuns]

Originally Posted by Oleg Bach

So this is a legal question and not a social or moral one?

From the perspective of the Supreme Court, yes. They have to rule on the Constitutionality of the cases, which is mostly based on the so-called equal protection clause of the 14th amendment, which was an attempt to severely limit the instances where someone's rights could be restricted in comparison to others. But there are several ways to rule--for instance, if they don't believe the defendants of the California Prop 8 prohibition of gay marriage have the legal standing to defend the law (Standing (law) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia ), they could refuse to rule on it (which is weird, since they've already heard the case--you'd think these things would get hashed out ahead of time).

Random personal note: Anthony Kennedy, widely regarded as the swing vote in the case, grew up about a mile from my house, went to high school just down the street, and is the longest-serving professor at the local law school.

[ryuns]

Originally Posted by cardinal2007

I think the main reason prop 8 would go back for a vote (really a proposition to repeal prop 8) if DOMA is overturned, but prop 8 is upheld, is that then you would have a huge difference between people that are married and those are in domestic partnerships, mainly that if you're married you get federal level rights that go along with marriage.

I don't know how a vote would go today if it were held today (instead of 2014 or 2016), but I would imagine the same issues would show up again as in the prop 8 vote in 2008, we should expect at least $5M to come from Utah to defend prop 8. Last time both sides raised around $40M, about 1/3 from out of state, I imagine next time closer to $30M for each side. California has over 10% of the US population, it is a big deal outside the state as well it seems.

Sadly, you're probably right. But there's a chance that opinion will have shifted enough that opponents of the effort to overturn prop 8 may have to realize that not only will they be throwing money away, but face serious criticism. Even the Mormon Church isn't totally immune from popular opinion, given their recent "nooooooooo, we love gays, we just don't want them to do gay stuff" campaign.

For about the best analysis one could ask for on the future of popular opinion on gay marriage, we turn to Nate Silver: How Opinion on Same-Sex Marriage Is Changing, and What It Means - NYTimes.com

[Howest2008]

Originally Posted by lillypie

Exactly. There's certain protections/benefits that marriage provides i.e. regarding taxes/insurance rates/hospital visitation/military/death benefits...etc. which is why I think marriage is so important in the legal sense.

I also heard a news report recently that if Prop. 8 was voted on today in CA it would not pass. I agree just based on the opinions of family/friends who live in the state but I'm curious what others think.

Domestic Partnership will work just as good as Homosexual Marriage ' don't you think ' ???!!!! , really the motivation behind the push for Homosexual Marriage is psychological " trying to make the general public think that Homosexual Sexual Relationships " are as normal as Heterosexual Relationships ( Marriage).

[Tulemutt]

Originally Posted by Howest2008

Domestic Partnership will work just as good as Homosexual Marriage ' don't you think ' ???!!!! , really the motivation behind the push for Homosexual Marriage is psychological " trying to make the general public think that Homosexual Sexual Relationships " are as normal as Heterosexual Relationships ( Marriage).

Normal? Heterosexual marriage is as contrived as anything else. Based on mindless traditions mostly created by religious fantasies. Reminds me of George Bernard Shaw's quote

“When two people are under the influence of the most violent, most insane, most delusive, and most transient of passions, they are required to swear that they will remain in that excited, abnormal, and exhausting condition continuously until death do them part.”

[Howest2008]

Originally Posted by Tulemutt

Normal? Heterosexual marriage is as contrived as anything else. Based on mindless traditions mostly created by religious fantasies. Reminds me of George Bernard Shaw's quote

I'm not Anti-Homosexual or Gay in any way or fashion and supported Domestic Partnership from the Get Go.....
the start , and anyway what civil rights were Gays Ever Lacking In The Great State Of CALIFORNIA. Somebody is going to be happy and somebody is going to be sad come September 2013. The Federal Government messed up with DOMA they should have given Domestic Partnership ALL FEDERAL GOV BENEFITS and RIGHTS that would've saved the INSTITUTION OF HETEROSEXUAL MARRIAGE..

[Gentoo]

Originally Posted by Howest2008

Domestic Partnership will work just as good as Homosexual Marriage ' don't you think ' ???!!!! , really the motivation behind the push for Homosexual Marriage is psychological " trying to make the general public think that Homosexual Sexual Relationships " are as normal as Heterosexual Relationships ( Marriage).

Baloney!!! I think this C-D member said it best:

Originally Posted by pigeonhole

The term "marriage" has a symbolic value in society. There's a difference between saying "this is my husband" and "this is my boyfriend". Denying homosexuals the right to marry implies that their relationship is inferior and not worthy of the same recognition