Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
You sure do like your ellipsis. If this was not what the government wanted corporations to do, the tax code would not be this way.
Do you go out of the way to pay more taxes than you are legally obligated to? If not, why would you expect Apple to?
All is good. Nothing to be fixed or addressed here. It is as designed....
But wait ..
Unintended consequences - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
More recently, the law of unintended consequences has come to be used as an adage or idiomatic warning that an intervention in a complex system tends to create unanticipated and often undesirable outcomes.
Or we can defer to the fact that govt's work for corporations and are corrupt to no end.. thus, tax breaks/tax loopholes are given and designed specifically to get corporations and in California's case they just defer to tax the snot out of the individual instead ... Tax loopholes and breaks non-withstanding...
a few privileged engineers get paid quite well.. outsources all of the manuf'ing ... and contributes pennies relatively to the tax base ... prop13 .. hardly paying much in commercial property tax.. Then California's govt.'s solution is to not address this commercial tax issue .. but hey : lets increase income tax and sales tax.
Re-occurring problem : ridiculous govt. which California has lots of.
All is good. Nothing to be fixed or addressed here. It is as designed....
But wait ..
Unintended consequences - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
More recently, the law of unintended consequences has come to be used as an adage or idiomatic warning that an intervention in a complex system tends to create unanticipated and often undesirable outcomes.
Or we can defer to the fact that govt's work for corporations and are corrupt to no end.. thus, tax breaks/tax loopholes are given and designed specifically to get corporations and in California's case they just defer to tax the snot out of the individual instead ... Tax loopholes and breaks non-withstanding...
a few privileged engineers get paid quite well.. outsources all of the manuf'ing ... and contributes pennies relatively to the tax base ... prop13 .. hardly paying much in commercial property tax.. Then California's govt.'s solution is to not address this commercial tax issue .. but hey : lets increase income tax and sales tax.
Re-occurring problem : ridiculous govt. which California has lots of.
I never said it was good, but it is by design.
Apple would be committing malfeasance if it didn't pay the lowest amount of taxes it could legally pay, since Apple's duty is to its shareholders, not to the state of California.
Further, California competes with 49 other states, not to mention other countries - it is, taxation-wise, a race to the bottom. Our tax burden can't be too far out of line with other states.
Apple would be committing malfeasance if it didn't pay the lowest amount of taxes it could legally pay, since Apple's duty is to its shareholders, not to the state of California.
Further, California competes with 49 other states, not to mention other countries - it is, taxation-wise, a race to the bottom. Our tax burden can't be too far out of line with other states.
Californian's individual income tax rate is in the top 5 highest actually .. and doesn't race to the bottom when it comes to sales tax/individual income tax .. vehicle tax.. new home buyer tax.. car registration tax... parcel tax..
it sure as hell gives tax breaks and intentional loopholes to corps though...
Not small businesses.. but big corps that have the legal departments and global presence to take advantage.
The issue being pointed out that big corps don't pay jack and the ridiculous spending conducted by California is expected to be paid by individuals ... Apple is optimizing as well as many other mega corps and Calif. govt. is doing its part to make sure individuals pick up the slack even though they don't take in the lionshare of a corp's profits ...
So, it's a big issue when you try to race to the bottom to compete to keep companies but don't adjust your spending.. someone pays and in California that is the small fries.
I have a masters degree in Electrical and Computer Engineering focusing specifically in Embedded systems. I have Graduate level education in Embedded control systems and have worked w/ commercial grade robotics assembly equipment (design/programming). I also have education in machine learning/vision and 3d kinematics.
Okay, so you worked in a factory setting or just a lab? Have you implemented any systems and baby sat them, cradle to grave? Have you dealt with higher ups telling you no when you showed them the price tag to make it happen? Fact is, even if the concept exist it's not always feasible or practical aside from cost even if it's a spaceship and has warp drive.
Quote:
Originally Posted by yeahthatguy
The technology is there to place a silly flex cable .. Micro robotics are capable of peeling a grape and performing open heart surgery with more accuracy and precision.. Given your education, you know full and well, if someone paid for it, a robot could be designed to place a flex cable.. The issue is again : Costs .. not capability.
The robot peeling the grape is a surgical robot, an extension of a surgeons dexterity and skill controlled by the surgeon though a UI, not programmed to do a repeatable routine. Big difference here. Sure it could place a flex interconnect, but in this case there is no practical advantage for speed and cost. Will there ever be a day, sure it might be sooner than later.
Quote:
Originally Posted by yeahthatguy
Usually I don't quote someone and back their point unless I endorse and believe in it.. This is a California forum and the topic of Apple has nothing to do w/ FL. Please stay on topic.. you are veering again. You have your own view of (South Florida) .. B.T.W - A cloud computing software company in the top 100 companies (rank #25) is located in South Florida... beating out many of the old guard companies in the valley.
What we are discussing has nothing to do with your post, it's way off topic. If it's so great here, then why don't you come back? Cloud Computing is not my sector, nor would I be employable in it anyways. Fact is there isn't much here and I hear it from my co-workers everyday.
Quote:
Originally Posted by yeahthatguy
Again, you're wrong. I have a Masters level education in this area and have
worked in the industry .. Also am a shareholder and investor who is informed. What about you .. ?
It doesn't matter if you have a PhD, reading something claimed and actually seeing it come to reality is a part of the corporate world of disinformation. You know and I know that any big company doesn't divulge it's business plans on the open market or even in a shareholders meeting. That's all fluff, the real doings are behind closed doors, Foxconn did not even allow cameras in their facility till after Apple bent their arm over all the negative press.
Quote:
Originally Posted by yeahthatguy
Wow, a human has 3 and is less precise.. Explain to me how you are more capable... If you want to get into the technicals, we can... I just figured from the way you were talking you had no clue about the industry or field so I thought I'd indulge you w/ a video that exampled how your 'put and place' statements were false.
I'm not arguing precision, by no means. The video you provided only shows pick and place, there is no dexterity examples, sorry am I being obtuse? You also do not need a 15 axis robot to do that in some instances.
This is a simple component with a flex being placed on a PCB, by no means the flex interconnects I'm talking about with multiple bends and pass through points.
If you don't know the depth of something, when information is presented that contradicts your basic understanding, please do yourself a favor and research more. Frida is a concept .. da vinci is not .. again, i am giving you examples. You claimed x isn't possible and those are real world examples of how it is .. There is nothing complicated about a placing a flex cable in a socket. Robots work at higher precision than that and have for years.. You are venturing all over the place and arguing in extremes to try to make an invalid point.. The extreme : 100% fully automated manuf. and are ignoring the fact that robots can replace hundreds of thousands of workers... which getting back to the original point .. THE LABOR IS UNSKILLED !
Frida vs Da Vinci, okay again it's not an apple to apples comparison. The principle of using the Da Vinci in manufacturing is impractical and utter nonsense. Your comparing a robot meant for manufacturing vs a surgical non-autonomous device controlled by a surgeon who is highly skilled. In the hands of anyone who has no skill or training it it, would yield disastrous results. Your still not removing the human component in your example.
Quote:
Originally Posted by yeahthatguy
Please don't turn this into a personal attack. You are wrong on many accounts and are showing your obvious lack of knowledge about the field. FYI, I am a CMU Graduate... I have a Masters in Electrical and Computer Engineering w/ a focus in Embedded Systems and worked heavily with industry leaders : BOSCH/GM/Ford/etc w.r.t to embedded control systems. I have industry experience in R&D and have actually worked w/ commercial grade robotics assemblies... Now, what about you ?
Wholly Moses say it isn't so, Andrew Carnegie is probably rolling in his grave right now.
Your the one that was slinging mud out of the gates, not me. I'm not wrong on anything your thinking from a theoretical world and not from practical world. Based on your views and rants, your level of practical hands on experience is very limited.
I'm not going to ramble my credentials or my experience, I'm not trying to impress anyone and I'm not a megalomaniac. I left my collegiate ego at my dorm room a long time ago how about you?
Quote:
Originally Posted by yeahthatguy
Logical fallacy .. Arguing in extremes .. One of the clear signs someone hasn't a clue as to what they are talking about or are grounded in 'real world' experience ...
Are you looking in the mirror during this bit?
Quote:
Originally Posted by yeahthatguy
I wasn't aware open heart surgery was simple.
I would not know, did you go to Med School as well?
Quote:
Originally Posted by yeahthatguy
You are confusing capability with economic feasibility .. In the real world as you like to reflect, costs matter.. It's the reason why manuf. is in china and is the reason why stuff worked out in University labs and in R&D aren't present in every assembly line floor.. Now, I am wondering why, if you claim to have such industry knowledge that you are falsely correlating capability w/ economic feasibility. There are many things a human isn't capable of that a robot is .. So, what's your point ?
Not denying "capability" exists but there are things that existed ahead of their time 50 years ago that never made it to production, it's a fact of life. The $ rules, robots and computers are dumb without someone holding their hand. We have not reached Skynet levels just yet.
Quote:
Originally Posted by yeahthatguy
Finally !!! Someone understands 'costs' is the real world driver .. A re-occurring theme right? and explain what costs and adaption have to do w/ the fact that technology exists that is capable. WRONG again..
A lot of technology exists, what your point? Implementing it is not always easy or feasible. If you have no practical experience then I can see why this would be a hard concept to grab.
Quote:
Originally Posted by yeahthatguy
I think i'd count 2 years of collaborative R&D work w/ some of the industry leaders centered on embedded control systems and robotics to be experience.. You seem to be confusing the economics of robotics/automation usage in the factory w/ the present day capabilities as such which is the subject of R&D labs and academia ... The engineer creates something capable of doing x .. The business guy says : that's great and all but I can pay someone $14 a day to do the same job a $300 million robot does ... So, no, kind sir, you wont see the robot present on a factory floor .. the least of all in a place like china where labor is so cheap.. That's the last place you'll find advanced robotics equipment.
I don't care about your experience, I really think for someone who post's on here as much as you do citing things you "Googled", I know, we are all guilty of it, would be busier at work? I mean, not to be hypocritical, I tend to not sit at my desk at work with City Data open typing long winded replies, I'm at home now and can feel ethical about it. I don't know maybe you are not even working, not my business I don't care if in reality you are some 15 year old kid in Weston typing away on your Macbook with delusional thoughts like some Lifetime movie lol.
What ever happened to the old chant here about how California has been doing everything wrong for the business environment and driving business away in droves? Now we read that the state tax code favors corporations to keep them here?
Well, I know the snappy answer that is going to come back about selectivity of tax favors to industry darlings ... but funny isn't it, how the California-bashing rhetoric is also selective. And if the state is so sensitive to its favorite large corporations, then I guess it knows who it values and how it can value others if and when necessary.
Californian's individual income tax rate is in the top 5 highest actually .. and doesn't race to the bottom when it comes to sales tax/individual income tax .. vehicle tax.. new home buyer tax.. car registration tax... parcel tax..
it sure as hell gives tax breaks and intentional loopholes to corps though...
Not small businesses.. but big corps that have the legal departments and global presence to take advantage.
The issue being pointed out that big corps don't pay jack and the ridiculous spending conducted by California is expected to be paid by individuals ... Apple is optimizing as well as many other mega corps and Calif. govt. is doing its part to make sure individuals pick up the slack even though they don't take in the lionshare of a corp's profits ...
So, it's a big issue when you try to race to the bottom to compete to keep companies but don't adjust your spending.. someone pays and in California that is the small fries.
Sure, it isn't a race to a bottom for people, it's a race to the bottom for employers - people don't have much of a choice, if the tech companies are here, then the computer engineers and so forth will be here, they aren't going to move to Wyoming and become a roughneck.
Okay, so you worked in a factory setting or just a lab? Have you implemented any systems and baby sat them, cradle to grave? Have you dealt with higher ups telling you no when you showed them the price tag to make it happen? Fact is, even if the concept exist it's not always feasible or practical aside from cost even if it's a spaceship and has warp drive.
The robot peeling the grape is a surgical robot, an extension of a surgeons dexterity and skill controlled by the surgeon though a UI, not programmed to do a repeatable routine. Big difference here. Sure it could place a flex interconnect, but in this case there is no practical advantage for speed and cost. Will there ever be a day, sure it might be sooner than later.
What we are discussing has nothing to do with your post, it's way off topic. If it's so great here, then why don't you come back? Cloud Computing is not my sector, nor would I be employable in it anyways. Fact is there isn't much here and I hear it from my co-workers everyday.
It doesn't matter if you have a PhD, reading something claimed and actually seeing it come to reality is a part of the corporate world of disinformation. You know and I know that any big company doesn't divulge it's business plans on the open market or even in a shareholders meeting. That's all fluff, the real doings are behind closed doors, Foxconn did not even allow cameras in their facility till after Apple bent their arm over all the negative press.
I'm not arguing precision, by no means. The video you provided only shows pick and place, there is no dexterity examples, sorry am I being obtuse? You also do not need a 15 axis robot to do that in some instances.
This is a simple component with a flex being placed on a PCB, by no means the flex interconnects I'm talking about with multiple bends and pass through points.
Frida vs Da Vinci, okay again it's not an apple to apples comparison. The principle of using the Da Vinci in manufacturing is impractical and utter nonsense. Your comparing a robot meant for manufacturing vs a surgical non-autonomous device controlled by a surgeon who is highly skilled. In the hands of anyone who has no skill or training it it, would yield disastrous results. Your still not removing the human component in your example.
Wholly Moses say it isn't so, Andrew Carnegie is probably rolling in his grave right now.
Your the one that was slinging mud out of the gates, not me. I'm not wrong on anything your thinking from a theoretical world and not from practical world. Based on your views and rants, your level of practical hands on experience is very limited.
I'm not going to ramble my credentials or my experience, I'm not trying to impress anyone and I'm not a megalomaniac. I left my collegiate ego at my dorm room a long time ago how about you?
Are you looking in the mirror during this bit?
I would not know, did you go to Med School as well?
A lot of technology exists, what your point? Implementing it is not always easy or feasible. If you have no practical experience then I can see why this would be a hard concept to grab.
I don't care about your experience, I really think for someone who post's on here as much as you do citing things you "Googled", I know, we are all guilty of it, would be busier at work? I mean, not to be hypocritical, I tend to not sit at my desk at work with City Data open typing long winded replies, I'm at home now and can feel ethical about it. I don't know maybe you are not even working, not my business I don't care if in reality you are some 15 year old kid in Weston typing away on your Macbook with delusional thoughts like some Lifetime movie lol.
Blah blah blah.. first your topic of discussion is :
Apple locates jobs overseas because it can't find skilled labor in the U.S
[wrong : it locates jobs overseas because it costs less and is less regulated]
Then you try a new discussion...
Robots .. and usage in manuf.
You jumble technological capability w/ economic feasibility and rollout on a manuf. floor..
Then you start arguing in extremes ... and focus not on the broad range of things robots can do and the large number of unskilled manual labor they can do and for which foxconn will use to replace human labor (as costs are rising) .. and instead focus on the niche things they they can't do (but wait, they can.. it's just too dam expensive and impractical to put to use on a machine floor plugging in retarded flex cables when someone is willing to do it all day for $14) ... Remind me again why apple doesn't manuf. here?
First off, your 'robot' argument is dead in the water from the start as you are argument structure is 'appeal to extremes' and is a logical fallacy. Secondly, you again focus on what's on the shop floor (only what's economically feasible in the local environment vs. human labor costs) and not on the raw technology (which is the topics of academia and R&D budgets)..
You haven't made a single point and could care less for your silly slippery slope progression and re-direction from the topic.
Can you go in a shop and machine an engine block within 0.025 mm of the spec w/ your bare hands and a machining bit? O' SNAPP O' SNAP .. you can't perform that task w/ all the dexterity you have.. See .. omfg.. i found it.. found something you can't do .. hurrrr hurrr.. I made an amazing point
This is what this last bit of verbal nonsense looks like (applied to the topic of robotics).. all of this related to the apple discussion and claim that they need skilled labor...
P.S - Keep up the personal attacks.. and we have yet another person who wants to claim i am not who I say I am .. lol, this sh*t never gets old. Then comes the : O' why aren't you busy at work? .. then comes the.. what are you 10? i left the college ego in the dorm.. I'm a real boy out in the real world .. lol ... I love it .. i really do.
Related to the topic and the foolish [non] points you were trying to make .. You have failed to say anything... I could be barney the dinosaur .. Has nothing to do w/ how incorrect and foolish your slippery slope of misdirection/appeal to extremes and venturing off topic has been .. and even w/ all of it, you haven't made any points.
You thought your genius quote of a business main had validity and was true and have been fumbling in side discussions since.. Your arguments got laid out and now you're upset and making it personal... :
Relax and stop lashing out because you're but hurt that the original point you made was incorrect. If i am a 15 year old idiot, that makes your discussion even more ridiculous that a 15 year old was able to stomp it in the ground ..
Last edited by yeahthatguy; 04-30-2012 at 10:19 PM..
You are most definitely not who you think you are: the second coming ....
And, as I have pointed out more than once in the past by simple arithmetic based on your claims about yourself in many posts, you really haven't begun to dry off behind your ears, nor do what you claim to have done. So why don't you knock off the self-stroking ... It's truly as obnoxious as anything seen on the whole forum. And I am certainly only one of a very great many who keeps telling you so. You claim to be smart? Figure out why so many respond so negatively to you. Hint: it's not envy.
Btw: the video clips and lol-cats you like to throw in at the bottom of your posts? You make Jr. High look mature.
oh nully.. i see an ignored post immediately below mine.. you and .highnlite are actively back on ignore.. just a heads up in case you are wasting your time spewing personal attacks again and not contributing intelligently to the discussion.
oh nully.. i see an ignored post immediately below mine.. you and .highnlite are actively back on ignore.. just a heads up in case you are wasting your time spewing personal attacks again and not contributing intelligently to the discussion.
Do you think that because you can't see my posts that others also can't? Like an ostrich? So clever you are! The boy wunderkind!
You said you put me on ignore months ago ... And yet you have responded time and time again. I know you read my posts, every one of them. You read them even if on ignore, when people quote me to respond ... and when you are not signed on they appear in the thread.
Regardless, do you imagine me frustrated, even if you don't read my posts? When bigotry and / or aggressively obnoxious depreciations of others, individual or of humanity in general, comes across my path, whoever writes it -- I will respond. I respond to inform and / or entertain others.
Reaching you, specifically, is pointless and insignificant as you have demonstrated yourself far too self-absorbed to ever acquire any true perspective.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
