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Ian...I am curious as to your take on the rest of Vermont. What do you think of people who can only pay $5 in gas and hope they do not run out on the highway? How about the rising crime rate in the rural areas? Alot of the crimes are the result of drug users needing a fix, so they commit burglaries and robberies. What about the schools? I know my family's school cannot afford enough to give everyone books. What about the increase in traffic fatalities due to drinking and driving? If you took time and truly talked with the people who live in these rural communities you will see many sad people who do not see any future. The saddest thing in these communities is how the people just are seeming not to care anymore. Burlington is a gem compared to these areas. I have lived in these communities for years and have gotten to know many of the people in the areas I have lived. Like I said, I am curious to how you feel about the rest of the state.
This forum is called "is there anything to dislike about Burlington?"
But I'll say, in regards to your question, that no place is perfect. Rural places are often misunderstood as being "quaint, etc."-----however, reality is often different. I have spent a great deal of time in the most remote corners of North America (places that make Newport seem like a big city). every rural area has drinking and drug problems and healthy portions of domestic abuse. Crime is unavoidable anywhere. People in general are violent and prone to chemical addictions. This becomes more pronounced in areas that are not burgeoning economically. Burlington, however, is a small, clean city with few major crime problems. I believe that this is due to extremely high levels of higher education among its citizens. About %16 of Burlington has a graduate degree. Thats a sizable proportion compared to say, Jamestown, NY. Please do not speculate that because I like Burlington (where I live) "I must be ignorant of the entire state of Vermont and don't understand poor rural folks who can't get by ,and, anyway, a real vermonter hates naked people and everythings gone to hell and a handbasket cause of the crazy nekkid city slickers, etc." -that is an extremely insulting opinion from all angles and a prejudice often voiced by disgruntled, unemployed, "take back vermont" slogan bearers. I am not a trust fund recipient dazed from parental good fortune simply because I made good choices in life and now live happily employed in Burlington......instead I worked hard to get out of my poor, rural, hometown. I went to college, travelled on grants, and now have 3 degrees. I have pride in the city where I live and work. That is what separates a city like Burlington from the average. Pride, creativity, and education..... This is an open country. move anywhere you want. If you perceive your town as "hopeless"---well, find a job elsewhere and move. I did and so can you. Right now, Wyoming has a great blue collar job market. So does Alaska and Texas. The couch and TV are your worst enemies.
There is only one Western New York. And if you are an hour west of Buffalo, you'd be singing Oh Canada! and waving a flag with a red maple leaf. So if you are going to bag on an area, at least know where it is.
You are just wrong. You are wrong and way to literal. Obviously there are towns in New York west of Buffalo. Ever here of Fredonia or Dunkirk? Ok, so they are southwest. geez.
I'm always surprised when people say they find Burlington to be filled with "open-minded" people. I'm not sure how that's possible since this is New England. I always want to ask them what are they basing their opinions and "open minded" as compared to what???
Frankly, I'm just not sure if I could call a place or its citizens open minded at least until they can teach their kids NOT to point and stare at People of Color.
Personally, having lived all over the world, I find Burlington, like the rest of Vt quite backward.
I think Vermont has an overinflated sense of self and now that I'm moving (yipee) to the West Coast I'm looking forward to being around truly open minded people.
Recent article from WCAX TV about the traffic woes in Burlington and a new ordinance preventing drivers from blocking side streets and intersections in the PM rush hour window.
As I previously mentioned, it sometimes (perhaps even usually) takes about an hour to travel the 1-2 miles from downtown to the Interstate.
There are many things to like about Burlington, but since this thread is about things to dislike, I will dwell on those:
1. Traffic. Burlington has awful city traffic for a city of its size. This is due to poor planning, bad road repair, speed limits set too low to clear out traffic (Shelburne Road, 40 mpg?!), inadequate stop lights and turn arrows, and poor freeway access. If you come from a major urban area, you might think the delays are nothing to complain about (20-30 mins to go 6-8 miles), but you can get stuck even longer.
2. Sprawl. Growth "planning" has led to the most ridiculous sprawl for such a rural state. The city of Burlington is pretty small, most of it walkable or bike-able, but then the 300k people in Chittenden County are spread out in low density growth areas because of land use patterns that focus on aesthetics instead of real-world science about work-home-retail traffic patterns.
3. Welfare. The city of Burlington is called "livable." Well, in the rebranding lexicon that means that there are tons of bums and poor people--it is more of a magnet for poor people from Vermont and other states. Vermont was recently ranked as the #1 welfare state in the US by the NYT. In cities, particularly most cold, northern climates, if someone cannot make a living, they move. That is the history and pattern of the US. You don't subsidize people to live in a place that they cannot by their own means afford. You might provide transitional resources because that is good public policy, but in Vermont, and in Burlington in particular, there is a culture of welfare that is surprisingly more akin to East St. Louis or Detroit.
4. Schools. Some of the worst performing schools in Vermont are in Burlington. Teachers are paid too much, the focus is too much on teacher-aides, and they are all unaccustomed to working at the pace and intensity that it takes to educate inner-city youth. And yet, that is exactly what 2 or 3 of the schools in Burlington have. People who can move out of Burlington, do move to surrounding communities. Again in the same pattern as East St. Louis, Detroit and many other larger cities. No real shock that when you establish policies that created suburban flight in the 1960s in other places, you get the exact same results.
5. Decision Constipation. Nothing gets solved, because no one has the political courage to make a decision, and instead everything is up for a popular vote. Sometimes the most popular decision isn't the right decision. Think Moran Plant. Think The Circ.
6. Bob Kiss, the mayor. I could write a tome, but enough said.
For a tourist, Burlington is awesome. For a resident that isn't into the counter-culture, group-think, it is troubling.
Thanks for sharing, ModeratelySpeaking. Your post is very interesting, and in some of your observations, there's certainly a kernel of truth.
Here are a few thoughts on a few of your observations from a local:
1. Traffic -
I'm no expert on traffic, but yep - there's traffic. And complaining about potholes is a cherished passtime here. Typically though, people from elsewhere remark that there's relatively light traffic here, but perhaps they're from more congested areas (my recent buyer-clients have come from London England, NJ, Boston, Houston, Southern NH, etc...). I do council people looking to commute to IBM to look carefully at thier commuting route before making an offer... and finally: Oh, so you're the guy speeding on Shelburne Road, eh? ;-)
2.) Sprawl -
There are 300 thousand people in Chittenden County? When did our population double?
...and I'm not sure what the word Sprawl means the way you've used it, but Sprawl isn't a word I hear people using to describe present conditions in Chittenden County very often.
3) Welfare -
Would you kindly share a link to the NYT article you refered to? I don't find it searching. Thanks.
4) Schools -
Yes - Burlington schools have problems and challenges. And the burden on us as taxpayers is high.
I have a couple of step-kids in the first years of college, so I know many dozens of families (of kids mine went to Edmonds and BHS with) who would serve as counterexamples of your statement that "people who can afford to move out of Burlington do move to surrounding communities". I myself lived in South Burlington and Jericho before moving into a neighborhood just South of Downtown Burlington. I've now been here in the same neighborhood for decades. I've assisted a dozen families with moves recently within downtown Burlington, and I'm pretty busy showing homes in Burlington to people who could live almost anywhere, but who pay something of a premium to be able to live in town.
5.) We've been going to City Council meeting recently. It's fascinating. See you there!
Quote:
Originally Posted by ModeratelySpeaking
There are many things to like about Burlington, but since this thread is about things to dislike, I will dwell on those:
1. Traffic. Burlington has awful city traffic for a city of its size. This is due to poor planning, bad road repair, speed limits set too low to clear out traffic (Shelburne Road, 40 mpg?!), inadequate stop lights and turn arrows, and poor freeway access. If you come from a major urban area, you might think the delays are nothing to complain about (20-30 mins to go 6-8 miles), but you can get stuck even longer.
2. Sprawl. Growth "planning" has led to the most ridiculous sprawl for such a rural state. The city of Burlington is pretty small, most of it walkable or bike-able, but then the 300k people in Chittenden County are spread out in low density growth areas because of land use patterns that focus on aesthetics instead of real-world science about work-home-retail traffic patterns.
3. Welfare. The city of Burlington is called "livable." Well, in the rebranding lexicon that means that there are tons of bums and poor people--it is more of a magnet for poor people from Vermont and other states. Vermont was recently ranked as the #1 welfare state in the US by the NYT. In cities, particularly most cold, northern climates, if someone cannot make a living, they move. That is the history and pattern of the US. You don't subsidize people to live in a place that they cannot by their own means afford. You might provide transitional resources because that is good public policy, but in Vermont, and in Burlington in particular, there is a culture of welfare that is surprisingly more akin to East St. Louis or Detroit.
4. Schools. Some of the worst performing schools in Vermont are in Burlington. Teachers are paid too much, the focus is too much on teacher-aides, and they are all unaccustomed to working at the pace and intensity that it takes to educate inner-city youth. And yet, that is exactly what 2 or 3 of the schools in Burlington have. People who can move out of Burlington, do move to surrounding communities. Again in the same pattern as East St. Louis, Detroit and many other larger cities. No real shock that when you establish policies that created suburban flight in the 1960s in other places, you get the exact same results.
5. Decision Constipation. Nothing gets solved, because no one has the political courage to make a decision, and instead everything is up for a popular vote. Sometimes the most popular decision isn't the right decision. Think Moran Plant. Think The Circ.
6. Bob Kiss, the mayor. I could write a tome, but enough said.
For a tourist, Burlington is awesome. For a resident that isn't into the counter-culture, group-think, it is troubling.
As someone who visited the area in April considering a possible relocation, I have comments on two things here:
1) Traffic - Purposely drove around during rush hour all over as well as I could and only traffic I really saw was around the IBM facility and off one of the I-89 exits (I think it was exit 16). Have you been to NYC or Boston lately? Or do you live on a farm?
2) Sprawl - I would hardly call the Burlington area "sprawl", perhaps compared to the rest of the state, but it is the smallest "biggest city in the state" of any in the nation. I bet there are some people in this forum who probably wish it would actually sprawl a little bit more thinking that could lower housing prices/increase availability a little.
The rest I really wouldn't be qualified enough to comment on.
1. Traffic. I don't live on a farm. I live in the city. Visiting once doesn't quite do it, so not much of a perspective. No one can deny that there is serious traffic on Shelburne Road, Main from the city to the freeway, and many other feeder roads. People that drive up from southern Chittenden county and Addison county have long commutes with actual traffic along the 7. You can rely on traffic counts if you would like, and all three of those roads have poor to below average service levels during rush hour (both am and pm). Those are objective measures based on the size of the roadway. And hopefully you weren't here for spring break, because a significant amount of the traffic is due to UVM/Champlain College.
2. Sprawl. For so few people, things are spread out all over. It is not mega-sprawl like Boston, Philadelphia or Los Angeles. But that would be a silly comparison, right? There are few places you can go in Chittenden county that DO NOT involve the use of a car to go 10-20 miles to get there. Go to Home Depot, get in car, 10-20 miles, etc. That is sprawl--services and people spread out instead of in concentrated areas.
The 150k from the census are permanent residents. It does not include the students, other non-residents, and second home owners. Call the 300k people the greater metro area, since most of the people that live in Addison, all the people that live in Grand Isle, and sizable portions of people that live in Washington and Lamoille commute into Chittenden county.
3. Welfare. Here you go. The graphic is quite nice. The other thing that is interesting is that most states have limits of 2 years os so for food stamps. Not Vermont, 60-72 months is the 'limit.' http://www.nytimes.com/2009/05/10/us/10safetynet.html
4. Schools. The way you put it, it sounds like there is growth in Burlington. Looks like it has stayed at 39k for a long time, and there is very little new housing growth in Burlington, except for condos. So for every person you move in, there is a corresponding person moving out. That pretty much answers that. (Hence why per capita and per household income growth in Burlington lags Vermont in general). You can also look at test scores, NECAPS, and the fact that Burlington spends $15k per pupil (in the top 20 in the country) for below average education. South Burlington spends a little more, and gets top rankings.
Anyway, I don't have a vested interest in "selling" Burlington. I don't sell real estate. Despite all of the negatives, I love it here because the positives overwhelm the negatives. Keep in mind the thread is about what NOT to like about it.
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Many things to dislike about Burlington
