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Wether fair or not, the f&b business operators I know are decrying Wu directly. My sense is that they have fought to hand on for 2 years now, and they feel the new administration has made restrictions even more draconian and not done anything to help them. They feel it is not clear that these mandates really do much with a variant as infectious as Omicron. I am fully vaccinated and feel the data at least clearly shows vaccination cuts down on severe disease, hospitalization and death. They argue that Boston's seasonal curve will look just like everywhere else, wether those places have vaccine passports and masks or not. I can't honestly dismiss this point of view.
Makes sense. I spoke to the owner of a restaurant nearby and she's just exhausted/annoyed/frustrated by all of the additional demands being placed on her business but didn't call the mayor out directly (though that could have been because she didn't know where I stood on the mayor and didn't want to ruffle feathers).
I'm not against the idea of vaccine passports in theory (I was fully in favor a year ago when we thought vaccines would prevent spread) and I certainly think that businesses should absolutely have the right to require them if they want to do so. I also think it's pretty clear that the vaccines cut down on server disease/hospitalization/death. But I would argue that there's not enough information on how much the vaccines prevent the spread of Omicron (if at all) in order to implement a mandate like this one. It's pretty clear that vaccinated (and boosted) individuals are testing positive and spreading the virus. Some studies even indicate that there's negligible reduction in transmissibility among the vaccinated. So yeah, I can understand the frustration.
I think you have a false sense of security. State DPH data released yesterday show 48% of those infected with COVID are fully vaccinated, and they can transmit it. So, if one infected person walks into a restaurant, there is basically a 50-50 chance that they have been vaccinated.
Having a vaccine passport also does not differentiate between one who got boosted in the last month, vs. one who got their 2nd jab last February and nothing since. I'm also not sure how fraud proof it really is.
basically a 50-50 chance that they have been vaccinated.
Only if 50 percent of the population were vaccinated. But in Mass…90+% of the local folks have had at least one shot…yep. Based on your link - 50/50 infection - It means pretty much THREE TIMES as many UNvaccinated people have COVID as do vaccinated - ya follow?
This is not pointed out in the article because most doctors (but clearly not all) can do math, and they assume the reader can too.
(population 7 million, 6.5 million have at least one shot, 500K do not. 20,000 sick people today, from WIKI, split down the middle, 10K vaccinated, 10K not. That’s 10K out of 500K, unvaccinated, and 10K out of 6.5 MILLION vaccinated. That’s, uh, 2% Unvaccinated vs 0.15% vaccinated. 13 to 1 ratio. Far, far, from 50/50.)
So in a restaurant with 600 vaccinated people – it’s likely that NO ONE is contagious.
In a restaurant with 100 Unvaccinated people – at least 2 are contagious. That’s all ya need. 2.
In reality though – you are both on the wrong sides of the fence: For the worried – it is Unlikely that you will find a contagious person in any restaurant – vaccinated or not – as just 1 in 100 or of you are contagious right now, perhaps more, but not more than 2 in 100. Meantime, you are ALSO wrong to not expect a reduction in spread from requiring vaccinations in restaurants – it’s just math. It does not matter if the reduction is 1 or 2 or 2 million – all COVID reductions are incremental – but that increment becomes huge, later on, so as they say, “every little bit helps.”
basically a 50-50 chance that they have been vaccinated.
Only if 50 percent of the population were vaccinated. But in Mass…90+% of the local folks have had at least one shot…yep. Based on your link - 50/50 infection - It means pretty much THREE TIMES as many UNvaccinated people have COVID as do vaccinated - ya follow?
This is not pointed out in the article because most doctors (but clearly not all) can do math, and they assume the reader can too.
(population 7 million, 6.5 million have at least one shot, 500K do not. 20,000 sick people today, from WIKI, split down the middle, 10K vaccinated, 10K not. That’s 10K out of 500K, unvaccinated, and 10K out of 6.5 MILLION vaccinated. That’s, uh, 2% Unvaccinated vs 0.15% vaccinated. 13 to 1 ratio. Far, far, from 50/50.)
So in a restaurant with 600 vaccinated people – it’s likely that NO ONE is contagious.
In a restaurant with 100 Unvaccinated people – at least 2 are contagious. That’s all ya need. 2.
In reality though – you are both on the wrong sides of the fence: For the worried – it is Unlikely that you will find a contagious person in any restaurant – vaccinated or not – as just 1 in 100 or of you are contagious right now, perhaps more, but not more than 2 in 100. Meantime, you are ALSO wrong to not expect a reduction in spread from requiring vaccinations in restaurants – it’s just math. It does not matter if the reduction is 1 or 2 or 2 million – all COVID reductions are incremental – but that increment becomes huge, later on, so as they say, “every little bit helps.”
Misses the point. I do not disagree with your math based on the ENTIRE population. That does not change the fact that the one infected person in a restaurant (as low as the odds may be) has a 50% chance of being vaccinated (OK 48% to be accurate)
I’ve been asking this for a while but it still seems ridiculous that you don’t have to show your card to get on a plane but you do have to show it to eat at a restaurant. Lots of people are using fake cards I guess. I mean I showed a picture of my card on my phone but didn’t have to show my license along with it to get into a game with thousands of others. Kids don’t have to show a card either.
That's because air travel is regulated at the Federal level and as we've seen throughout this pandemic (no matter which side is in charge) our government can't get out of it's own way unless it's being chased through the Capitol building by some weirdo with horns on his hat. Then they move real fast!
Quote:
Originally Posted by lrfox
Is it wariness of the Mayor herself or just general frustration with any policy or requirement after about 2 years of this that puts added strain on their business? My hunch is mostly the latter.
100%! It's not about who's in charge it's about dedicating the manpower to enforcing it when margins are already so squeezed.
Quote:
Originally Posted by wmass
I think you have a false sense of security. State DPH data released yesterday show 48% of those infected with COVID are fully vaccinated, and they can transmit it. So, if one infected person walks into a restaurant, there is basically a 50-50 chance that they have been vaccinated.
If you're vaccinated and you get COVID . . . who cares???? I got it and I had the sniffles for a few days. Infection rates are MEANINGLESS data at this point. The only data important at this phase of the pandemic are hospitalization and mortality rates. Non-vaccinated people are FAR outpacing vaccinated people in those metrics currently.
As I said in the other thread, if not for the threat of death of unvaccinated people we could all be getting on with our lives right now. I'm wearing a mask to protect other members of society. Having been vaccinated, boosted, and had COVID the odds of me going to the hospital or dying are beyond microscopic.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lampert
You are not an anti-vaxxer but it is still ridiculous to call this "government overreach" and "discrimination".
If you're against vaccination then you're an anti-vaxxer IMO. I can understand a little more those that are anti-vaxxers specifically for the COVID vaccine but the more traditional anti-vaxxers that are against more established vaccines I can't understand at all.
Quote:
Originally Posted by wmass
Misses the point. I do not disagree with your math based on the ENTIRE population. That does not change the fact that the one infected person in a restaurant (as low as the odds may be) has a 50% chance of being vaccinated (OK 48% to be accurate)
Those odds have changed a lot with Omicron but again . . . those aren't the numbers you should be looking at. Are we concerned at all with the common cold and infection rates? No. Why? Because almost no one ends up in the hospital or the grave from a cold. Focus on hospitalization and mortality rates.
Why is that? Studies have shown that vaccines do prevent people from getting infected so the likelihood of getting infected in a crown of vaccinated people are lower than the odds of getting infected in a crowd of unvaccinated people.
I don't think you have enough information to be able to reach this conclusion. While there may be a lower chance of a vaccinated person getting infected they still have an appreciable risk of being infected with delta. You're assuming that overall risk is simply a straight line connection to whether any unvaxed people are in a place. Your claim reminds me of all the people who were spouting off that because a mask shows that it inhibits droplets in a lab means it will result in less infections. Um, that didn't materialize nor did this finding surprise a lot of people.
Once infected both groups seem to transmit the virus similarly. Some studies have suggested that in certain venues like homes transmissibilty amongst those infected with Delta is pretty similar whether vaxed or unvaxed. With Omicron, game's on. Then there are other factors which may influence whether someone gets infected such as their own individual body's defenses, how much time they spend there, how close they are to an infected person etc. Is the vaxed person you are sitting next to complying with other safety measures to reduce their overall risk? Maybe not. Maybe the unvaxed person on the other side is? Do some of the vaxed persons own health make them at higher chance of being infected? These factors (and others) impact overall risk. So I don't think you can claim that any one person's risk of getting COVID at a restaurant is significantly less simply because of the passport, because all conditions are not equal and there haven't been any widespread studies that would suggest that certain businesses with vaccine requirements appear to present less risk Although if they are available I'd love to read them. Bottom line is just because it seems on first glance likely that allowing only vaxed people into a business lowers the overall risk doesn't mean that's necessarily the case given other factors and variables that may be in play. Omicron changes things even more. https://www.boston.com/news/coronavi...p_featurestack
Right now it seems the only true way to measure whether the risk is lower in a given business would be for everyone to be tested negative upon entering. But since even back in 2020 restaurants were connected to less than 4% of transmissions, I don't think that would be practical. If you are truly concerned about getting COVID because you believe yourself to be at high risk even though you are vaxed, I wouldn't let the COVID passport deal change your mind, I would stay out of restaurants if you are that concerned.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MikePRU
Plus, if you're vaccinated and you get COVID you'll almost definitely have more mild symptoms and it's highly unlikely that you will end up in the hospital or the mortuary. So, if vaccinated people spread COVID among themselves that's no worse than spreading a cold or flu virus which we deal with everyday.
The icing on the cake is that these mandates could unvaccinated people home lowering their risk of infection because . . .
A) they're more likely to get infected
B) they're far more likely to end up in the hospital or mortuary if they do get infected
So, this mandate protects people who apparently have no desire to protect themselves or the other members of their community.
Again, this is really sad to me that COVID has further torn apart our country whereas not long ago it would have united us against a common enemy.
. . . or fly internationally where you'd have to show your actual passport. Of course, if you want to fly to Hawaii or internationally you'd also have to show a negative COVID test result too.
None of this is pertains to the passport discussion in my view. Everyone understands the risk of hospitalization is lower with the vaccine and that wasn't point here.
Last edited by bostongymjunkie; 01-19-2022 at 02:35 PM..
That does not change the fact that the one infected person in a restaurant
Sure it does. Unvaccinated people are more likely to have it. It's that simple.
I'm trying to find a way to convince myself you might be right - seriously. But - when you say ENTIRE population - I'm only referring to the ENTIRE population of the restaurant - how could you not? Without other information, we'd have to assume the distribution in the restaurant mirrors the general population.
It means most of the people in the restaurant are vaccinated already - but if anyone in there is sick, they are STILL more likely to be unvaccinated than vaccinated. Only way it's not true is if the vaccinated people in the restaurant outnumber the others by 13 to 1. Then it'd be 50/50. Not 50/50 that someone has it - nope - but that IF someone has it - it's even odds.
But the point here I'm trying to make (not yours) is that ANYONE being contagious in there is ALREADY unlikely. A vaccine card will change nearly nothing. Practically everyone is already vaccinated, and of those that aren't, maybe 1 in 50 are contagious. Maybe.
That's because air travel is regulated at the Federal level and as we've seen throughout this pandemic (no matter which side is in charge) our government can't get out of it's own way unless it's being chased through the Capitol building by some weirdo with horns on his hat. Then they move real fast!
100%! It's not about who's in charge it's about dedicating the manpower to enforcing it when margins are already so squeezed.
If you're vaccinated and you get COVID . . . who cares???? I got it and I had the sniffles for a few days. Infection rates are MEANINGLESS data at this point. The only data important at this phase of the pandemic are hospitalization and mortality rates. Non-vaccinated people are FAR outpacing vaccinated people in those metrics currently.
As I said in the other thread, if not for the threat of death of unvaccinated people we could all be getting on with our lives right now. I'm wearing a mask to protect other members of society. Having been vaccinated, boosted, and had COVID the odds of me going to the hospital or dying are beyond microscopic.
If you're against vaccination then you're an anti-vaxxer IMO. I can understand a little more those that are anti-vaxxers specifically for the COVID vaccine but the more traditional anti-vaxxers that are against more established vaccines I can't understand at all.
Those odds have changed a lot with Omicron but again . . . those aren't the numbers you should be looking at. Are we concerned at all with the common cold and infection rates? No. Why? Because almost no one ends up in the hospital or the grave from a cold. Focus on hospitalization and mortality rates.
Sounds like you're now acknowledging that this mass vaccination campaign isn't exactly the same as all the others, after not acknowledging it previously. Glad you've come around.
If you want a different way of thinking, think of it as another stick in the toolbox of carrots and sticks to get as many people vaccinated as possible. The more people who are vaccinated, the fewer people get the disease and the less chance of another mutation. Also, the more people who are vaccinated, the fewer hospitalizations we have and we need to get those hospitalizations down so we don't overwhelm the healthcare system. We need the hospitals available for people who have heart attacks and strokes and auto accidents.
So whatever it takes to get people to minimize the risk they will get Covid, even if they don't care if they themselves die from it.
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