"Austin, we have a problem" (Round Rock, San Marcos: 2013, construction)

[jb9152]

Originally Posted by riaelise

the impression that I'm getting from threads like these is that suburban cities are somehow leeches or hangers on.

No, but trying to somehow divorce their fates and their successes or failures from the core city is not a convincing argument. We're talking transportation in this thread. The recent TTI report on mobility investment priorities showed that over 85% of the traffic on I-35 during rush hours is generated *locally*. That is, from people driving from far out Austin neighborhoods to downtown, or from suburbs to central city. That same study shows that by 2035, if current growth projections hold, a commute from Round Rock to downtown Austin will take three hours. Of course, long before that happens companies and people will relocate out of the area...

Originally Posted by riaelise

Yeah, the growth of Austin has encouraged the growth of surrounding areas. But those surrounding areas are coming into their own so that many people won't have to use these central roads, parks, and whatever.

Yeah, that'll happen. Those 60% to 80% are all going to all be working a mile from home overnight...

[jb9152]

Originally Posted by scm53

Is there some data behind that?

Yes. Call your local city planning office (was just told last week that over 80% of the working population in one Hays County town leaves every day to work somewhere else - mostly Travis County), or take a look at the latest CAPCOG Commute and Labor Sheds by ZIP Code report (in Excel).

Originally Posted by scm53

Two facts - the largest private employer in the region isn't in Austin.

A non-sequitur if I ever saw one...

Originally Posted by scm53

And 7.3% of the workers in the area work from home.

That's made a *real* dent in traffic, for sure!

Originally Posted by scm53

I do know that less than half of all area commuters cross a county line - and it isn't necessarily to get to the holy grail of Austin. It also includes Austin outbound. So let's just say I'm skeptical of your 60-80% number.

Again, a non-sequitur. There are three county lines that abut Travis County. If nearly 48% of workers cross a county line, that's a huge number. The CAPCOG data shows that most of them are headed to Travis County (takes a little calculating in Excel, though...)

Originally Posted by scm53

And, as I said earlier, there is zero evidence all these "free riders" are anything of the sort.

Except for, you know, the daily 5 mph speed through downtown Austin on I-35 from about 7 AM to 10 AM and again from 3 PM through 7 PM.

[rangergrit]

Every time I am going 15 mph on I35 or Mopac, I thank the Sierra Club. Knowing that I am protecting some salamander from going extinct, unlike the millions of species that went extinct before these 'savers of the planet' (tm) arrived.

[scm53]

Originally Posted by jb9152

Yes. Call your local city planning office (was just told last week that over 80% of the working population in one Hays County town leaves every day to work somewhere else - mostly Travis County), or take a look at the latest CAPCOG Commute and Labor Sheds by ZIP Code report (in Excel).

I guess it will be a long wait for you to produce anything to back up your 80% number, huh? Because an anecdote from one Hays county town can extrapolate to every town in the Austin metro? Because the speed through downtown means so much?

The willingness of you true believers to make stuff up, exaggerate, obfuscate, is really pretty humorous. Spend too much time in the echo chamber? #1 - there is ZERO evidence that non-Austin residents "cost" more than the revenue attached to the property tax generated from their workplace. #2 - what the speed through downtown is, is meaningless in determining where these commuters originate. How do you know where those cars came from or are headed to? And how do you know they aren't Austin residents that live N and work S? Or vice versa?

OBTW - it was the CAPCOG data that had the less than 1/2 cross any county line. Which is really pretty meaningless anyway when one looks at data into one city, in one county. But definitely shows your numbers are WAAAAY overstated.

[atx1626]

Originally Posted by rangergrit

Every time I am going 15 mph on I35 or Mopac, I thank the Sierra Club. Knowing that I am protecting some salamander from going extinct, unlike the millions of species that went extinct before these 'savers of the planet' (tm) arrived.

Then move. Houston may be more your speed.

Preserving natural beauty, like everything else, comes with a price.

Poor design is as much a problem as environmental concerns, so let's leave the ad hominems to the comments section of the Statesman.

[scm53]

Originally Posted by atx1626

Then move. Houston may be more your speed.

America, love it or leave it!

Because it is so binary. Either or. Can't possibly be both? Can't we have an Austin solution that promotes mobility AND is environmentally sensitive?

[Novacek]

Originally Posted by scm53

America, love it or leave it!

Because it is so binary. Either or. Can't possibly be both? Can't we have an Austin solution that promotes mobility AND is environmentally sensitive?

We do, and it's rail.

[kavorka]

Originally Posted by Novacek

We do, and it's rail.

I love the idea of rail, but it isn't a solution. A focus on rail is actually detrimental to getting to work on real solutions. Our bus system is horrible, but it could be made into an effective system that transports people in ALL areas of the city. Money would be better spent on buses with dedicated lanes.

[jb9152]

Originally Posted by scm53

I guess it will be a long wait for you to produce anything to back up your 80% number, huh? Because an anecdote from one Hays county town can extrapolate to every town in the Austin metro? Because the speed through downtown means so much?

Heard it from multiple *planning directors* in suburban towns. It's a part of my job to ask that question. The speed through downtown is the symptom of the greater problem - capacity deficit. An even more telling factoid is that when the City of Austin Transportation Department does its counts at key intersections around the core, they are virtually at the same volumes as they were in the 1960s. A seemingly anomalous result, but the reason is not that there is less traffic; it's because those "gateway intersections" have been at capacity for 40 to 50 years.

Originally Posted by scm53

The willingness of you true believers to make stuff up, exaggerate, obfuscate, is really pretty humorous. Spend too much time in the echo chamber? #1 - there is ZERO evidence that non-Austin residents "cost" more than the revenue attached to the property tax generated from their workplace.

Not asserting that. You're arguing with someone on that point, but it's not me.

Originally Posted by scm53

#2 - what the speed through downtown is, is meaningless in determining where these commuters originate. How do you know where those cars came from or are headed to? And how do you know they aren't Austin residents that live N and work S? Or vice versa?

CAMPO and CAPCOG data. The speed downtown shows that it's the primary trip attractor in the 6-county region. The commute shed and survey data show that they're coming in large part from the suburbs.

Originally Posted by scm53

OBTW - it was the CAPCOG data that had the less than 1/2 cross any county line. Which is really pretty meaningless anyway when one looks at data into one city, in one county. But definitely shows your numbers are WAAAAY overstated.

WAAAAY, huh? So that traffic jam that starts north of 183 and south of Slaughter is all in my fevered imagination?

[scm53]

Originally Posted by jb9152

Heard it from multiple *planning directors* in suburban towns. It's a part of my job to ask that question.

Data is not the plural of anecdote. I understand you believe it to be true. Apparently, there is no conclusive data to back up your assertion of 60-80% of those living outside Austin work in the city. You could hear it from ten *planning directors*. If the cities are small enough, together they aren't a pimple on the total number.

Moving on, I'm confused. You said, in response to me:

Originally Posted by scm53
And, as I said earlier, there is zero evidence all these "free riders" are anything of the sort.

Except for, you know, the daily 5 mph speed through downtown Austin on I-35 from about 7 AM to 10 AM and again from 3 PM through 7 PM.

Apparently, this slow traffic speed, you attribute to extra-Austin commuters and not to Austin resident commuters. Right? So are they "free riders" or not?