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The elementary school my kids attended and where my wife now works went from 90% white to 90% Asian over the course of roughly a decade. Once Asian enrollment reached the tipping point (roughly 40% Asian enrollment) White families stopped buying houses in the school attendance zone. In response the district held off revising the attendance boundaries to bolster White enrollment at the school. When they could no longer do so most of the families in the two majority White subdivisions left in the attendance zone moved their kids to private school or to a majority white public school further north. They are so few White kids left that there aren’t enough to cluster them in classes.
When court ordered school desegregation ended in the late 1990s it took White parents just a decade to undo four decades of desegregation efforts. Over the past decade in dozens of locations White parents have tried, and sometimes succeeded, in seceding from majority POC jurisdictions to form majority White school districts. White parents in Gardendale led an ultimately unsuccessful effort to secede from the Jefferson County SD in the Birmingham area. The South is by far the area where White secession efforts have been attempted over the past decade because of the prevalence of county-wide school districts. Secession advocates ALWAYS insist race isn’t the motivation despite the fact that every secession effort would have resulted in a majority White district.
Just to be clear, White children are two times more segregated in school than they are segregated residentially. Schools are currently as racially segregated as they were when the Civil Rights Act was passed. If you want to know what White people actually believe don’t listen to what they say. Pay attention to what they do. And school enrollment is the perfect proxy for measuring how White parents actually value diversity.
What county? My wife, who has spent roughly 20 years in public education (Gwinnett, Cobb and Clayton counties), has never see anything such as you are describing. Not saying that you’re wrong, but that seems like quite a lot of white families from a single school, that moved, or all of a sudden could afford private school. Did the quality of the school go down leading to these whites heading for the hills?
Disinvestment in the City of Atlanta happened after over half the white population had already fled the city.
Although suburban living was a big draw in the 1950’s and 60’s, it was frequently and openly billed as a homogeneous refuge to the integrating residential communities in the city. High property and sales taxes, poor infrastructure, city services, etc. were not an issue until after white flight – in the 1970’s and 1980’s. In the 1950’s and 60’s, suburban homes were not marketed to black families at all.
In the Jim Crow south, nearly every white person held some degree of racist beliefs about black people. This is not to say that they were evil people, but these are the sentiments passed down to them by their parents, grandparents, teachers, ministers, police officers, judges, doctors, politicians, as well as television, radio, newspapers, etc.
Black flight didn’t really occur until the late 1980’s into the 1990’s. At which time, whites fled those areas to move even farther away. White Flight and Black Flight did not happen at the same time. For about and decade or two, black communities in the city thrived, but then declined when educated middle and upper class blacks attempted to follow whites into the suburbs – leaving mostly poor and working class black families in grossly under-enrolled schools. This resulted in massive school closures and mergers throughout the city. This also explains many of the lofts converted from school houses throughout the city.
Although the Brown vs Board of Education decision was passed in 1954, Georgia did not comply with integrating schools until 1961. The APS schools were not totally desegregated until 1965. By 1966, entire white communities in the CoA were abandoned as many/most remaining white residents fled en masse to the suburbs. A Brief History of Atlanta Public Schools from 1869 to 1965
[EDIT: I notice my posts from other threads disappearing. So I am respectfully requesting that the moderators not delete this post as it is relevant to the discussion and the good of the group -- particularly in the Atlanta Forum. Thank you]
I find that everything you wrote, mostly, if not completely factual. But, to add or emphasize a few other things. People in general, will do what is easy, will avoid what is hard, and will try to do with what is best for their children. So, there has always been at least 3 parts to “white flight”, and you can see some of the motivations among the choices that folks of all races/ethnicities make.
1) Many white folks moved because of outright racism, folks moving to avoid the “other”-hatred.
2) White folks leaving an area because it had become dangerous, or just difficult. Some gentrifiers laugh at the ugly burglar bars they remove when they renovate, but they were there for reason. Areas became rough, and white folks who did not intend on moving, moved because there were easier, safer places with better schools available—you can call it racist, and *some* of that is certainly mixed in, but the motivations are largely similar to black flight.
3) A lot of white folks never “flee”, they just age out of place, but they are not replaced by other white people, but a lot of black people with means would never choose to those neighborhoods either, for the same reasons.
So, it has always been sort of a gradient, and as people have changed, the leading motivations of residential patterns have changed—you can see the motivations and speed of the change as you go from Atlanta City (leaned more to #1), to central Dekalb county, to Gwinnett (leans more to #3). But, I believe the “new segregation” will be (already partly is) based not on race, but on “privilege” (or “wealth”, or whatever). You can already sort of see that in parts of inotwn and Gwinnett.
(And a quick note that I hope doesn’t detract from my main point, if you look on these boards there is a bit of desire for self-segregation among some individuals. For example a few times a year we will get posts asking for “Indian areas” or something similar. Well, if there are folks that will pay a premium to live in an area that contains more folks just like them, whites desire to leave the area will be irrelevant to the end result, as long as that minority group is growing, the area will become less white).
I find that everything you wrote, mostly, if not completely factual. But, to add or emphasize a few other things. People in general, will do what is easy, will avoid what is hard, and will try to do with what is best for their children. So, there has always been at least 3 parts to “white flight”, and you can see some of the motivations among the choices that folks of all races/ethnicities make.
1) Many white folks moved because of outright racism, folks moving to avoid the “other”-hatred.
2) White folks leaving an area because it had become dangerous, or just difficult. Some gentrifiers laugh at the ugly burglar bars they remove when they renovate, but they were there for reason. Areas became rough, and white folks who did not intend on moving, moved because there were easier, safer places with better schools available—you can call it racist, and *some* of that is certainly mixed in, but the motivations are largely similar to black flight.
3) A lot of white folks never “flee”, they just age out of place, but they are not replaced by other white people, but a lot of black people with means would never choose to those neighborhoods either, for the same reasons.
So, it has always been sort of a gradient, and as people have changed, the leading motivations of residential patterns have changed—you can see the motivations and speed of the change as you go from Atlanta City (leaned more to #1), to central Dekalb county, to Gwinnett (leans more to #3). But, I believe the “new segregation” will be (already partly is) based not on race, but on “privilege” (or “wealth”, or whatever). You can already sort of see that in parts of inotwn and Gwinnett.
(And a quick note that I hope doesn’t detract from my main point, if you look on these boards there is a bit of desire for self-segregation among some individuals. For example a few times a year we will get posts asking for “Indian areas” or something similar. Well, if there are folks that will pay a premium to live in an area that contains more folks just like them, whites desire to leave the area will be irrelevant to the end result, as long as that minority group is growing, the area will become less white).
I concur with most of what you have written as well. The only shade of detail that I would add or highlight is that in the initial wave of white flight from Atlanta, crime and general quality of life was not necessarily bad for most White Atlantans. Back then, most White Atlantans were scared that Black people would bring bad elements to their communities when, in actuality, crime did not increase. Well... it actually did increase, but it was mostly crimes by White residents committed towards the newer Black residents. In fact, the initial Black residents in White communities went out of their way to show that they were extremely law-abiding citizens -- considering the risk/circumstances. By the time burglar bars started going up, White residents and many affluent/middle-class Black residents were already gone.
I can even use myself as an example. As an early teen, our family moved to the Decatur/Stone Mountain/Lithonia area of Dekalb County in the late-80's when there were still some remaining White residents. Redan and Lithonia High Schools (which were also all white at one point) still had a dwindling, but noticeable number of White students. Ironically, during this time, while subdivisions like Hidden Hills were becoming the bastion of that generation's new Black middle class, the remaining White residents were mostly working class. I just attribute this to them not being able the leave before the area became all Black (which it did the following decade). Again, in that scenario, in the late 80's/early 90's, crime did not increase and the quality of life did not diminish as the new Black residents were relatively affluent. But the White residents of that era still found it necessary to collectively move away. Similar stories can be told about Latino residents moving to Gwinnett throughout the 90's.
I do agree that race was not on the forefront of every single White person's mind when moving away from an area that was becoming increasingly Black. But, to put it in perspective, people would often live in an area that they considered "good" for generations. I mentioned in another post a while back that one White family owned my Westview bungalow from 1925 to 1968, then one middle-class Black family lived here from 1968 to 2001. The daughter of that family kept the home from 2001 to 2004. A White family lived here for an additional 10 years, then we moved in. So continuously upgrading homes and neighborhoods "naturally declining" wasn't really a thing until relatively recently.
Again, I know there are exceptions to every rule. But it does beg the question: If Black residents were not trying to buy homes in this area in 1968, would that initial family have been compelled to up and move? Or would they have just lived there are passed the home along to their children, and so on. The same question can be asked about the White residents of Hidden Hills from the 70's/80's. On the other hand, I know people who live in northern Gwinnett, Cobb, or North Fulton who are fine with their place being their forever home. And if they did move, it was often to a house in the same area -- even the same subdivision.
Now I know that in the 21st century, some people really do want the manicured suburban lifestyle, and 3000 sf homes. I also know that the Metro has grown such that there are countless reasons that people move and live where they choose to live. I also agree that today, wealth and privilege do play a large factor in were people live. And I also know of Black people who enjoy living in Marietta, John's Creek, or the suburbs of South Fulton. But, it is somewhat unfortunate that more often than not, throughout the 60's, 70's, 80's and 90's, the perception or idea of Black people moving into an area meant that White people had to go (even when there was no increase in crime or decrease in quality of life when the decisions to move away were made). However, I will admit that when lower-income minorities came into those areas, and schools and communities really did decline, then most Black people with means left as well. But generally, White Flight has happened even before any real decline took place. Black Flight happened when an area was noticeably declining.
At the end of the day, the main reason why I made the aforementioned post was to counter ronricks' argument that the resistance that White people had for Black Atlantans moving into "white areas" back then, is equal or synonymous to any type of resistance by Black people toward White Atlantans that move into "black areas" today.
I also wanted to make the point that his claims that Black people on the S, W, and SW sides of Atlanta don't want White people moving there are greatly overblown. And that goes back to the context discussion from earlier in this thread. But all your points are duly noted...
Last edited by equinox63; 08-15-2021 at 08:11 PM..
The elementary school my kids attended and where my wife now works went from 90% white to 90% Asian over the course of roughly a decade. Once Asian enrollment reached the tipping point (roughly 40% Asian enrollment) White families stopped buying houses in the school attendance zone. In response the district held off revising the attendance boundaries to bolster White enrollment at the school. When they could no longer do so most of the families in the two majority White subdivisions left in the attendance zone moved their kids to private school or to a majority white public school further north. They are so few White kids left that there aren’t enough to cluster them in classes.
When court ordered school desegregation ended in the late 1990s it took White parents just a decade to undo four decades of desegregation efforts. Over the past decade in dozens of locations White parents have tried, and sometimes succeeded, in seceding from majority POC jurisdictions to form majority White school districts. White parents in Gardendale led an ultimately unsuccessful effort to secede from the Jefferson County SD in the Birmingham area. The South is by far the area where White secession efforts have been attempted over the past decade because of the prevalence of county-wide school districts. Secession advocates ALWAYS insist race isn’t the motivation despite the fact that every secession effort would have resulted in a majority White district.
Just to be clear, White children are two times more segregated in school than they are segregated residentially. Schools are currently as racially segregated as they were when the Civil Rights Act was passed. If you want to know what White people actually believe don’t listen to what they say. Pay attention to what they do. And school enrollment is the perfect proxy for measuring how White parents actually value diversity.
I don't get why you guys reply to RonRicks with such eloquent, well-thought-out responses. He is just a racist mega-troll that likes to deny reality.
Normally, I would feel the same way. But then I would notice four or five posters who would consistently cosign several of his comments. Then you would have seemingly “neutral” people who would chime in like, “Well, he does have a point… “.
Since I imagine this forum is viewed by many people to get information about Atlanta, there are some pieces of misinformation that I find it hard to just let ride. When I refer to some people being uninformed, it is not a diss. There are just some things that people do not know or have not really considered about certain topics.
So most of the time, the responses are not necessarily for him or the posters that can be construed as racist. I just don’t like having such fallacious information just hanging out in a public forum unaddressed.
I assume that most of the posters on here are reasonable and intelligent people. So I sometimes hope that when his rants or comments are met with reasoned and logical arguments, that the general public can see how flimsy his various “points” are regarding race, crime, etc.
But you are right, I will try to do a better job of just ignoring the crazy commentary and keep it moving.
There's no doubt race was a major factor in white flight but you also have to take into account the quest for ER and the general suburbanization of society.
Central cities had been in decline since the early decades of the 20th century and the trend accelerated in the post-war years. Society saw the rise of the automobile and personal income, roadbuilding and the movement of jobs and shopping centers. Yes, those things were influenced by racial policies but as blacks became increasingly affluent they have also joined the process of suburbanization in large numbers.
I guess my point is simply that these things have to be viewed in the larger social context.
I wonder if this could be a misunderstanding of how Title I funds are spent (I only have a casual knowledge about Title I, so what I’m saying could be wrong). Title I funding are Federal monies that are intended to bridge the gap between rich and poor students. Title I schools (schools with a large economically disadvantaged student body) get more Title 1 funding than “rich” schools, but most every school gets something. But, in non-Title 1 schools, Title 1 funding is supposed to directly help Title 1 students. Mary Lin has a predominantly white and wealthy student body, and in APS the the economically poor students are disproportionately black. So, if limited Title 1 funding were used to fund additional teacher’s helpers (or something similar) then those helpers should actually help poor students. Given Lin’s demographics, a misunderstanding between the administrators and the parent could have occurred, not far off from what has been reported. Even if that is true, the parent still may have a reason to be upset, but then if Title 1 funding was not being spent to actually help poor students, parents would also have a reason to be upset. That said, most (if not all) of the black students at Lin that I have met have parents that are not poor, and I have also known poor white students that have attended Lin, but there is little doubt that Title 1 students in APS are disproportionately black. Another note, the demographics of the pre-covid Lin classrooms don’t support an argument that for what most folks would think of as being racial segregation was going on.
This is just one plausible explanation of what occurred (in the short time I taught, I certainly had instances where a parent heard something very different than what I was trying to communicate—I was once called to the principal for telling a parent that his child “wouldn’t learn anything” in my chemistry class.” What I was *trying* to do was to get the child moved to an Advanced Placement chemistry class—so, these things do happen).
Quote:
Originally Posted by jeoff
Oh wow! The husband is a psychologist at Mary Lin and she is an educator who provides services to the school, and they are both claiming “retaliatory acts.” A more nefarious possibility is that the husband was at risk of being fired and/or she was at risk of losing whatever her work is with the school, but their segregation accusations make firing him and and/or her very difficult, since it could be claimed that the termination was retaliation.
In fairness to the parents making the complaint, it may be that they are legally and factually correct (though how it is portrayed in the media would be way off). If this happened during COVID, when only some of the students went back to school, there may have been only a handful of black students returning to class, so the principal could have made the decision to not place just place one black student per a class, and cluster the black students in two classes, so they will not be the “only one”. If that is the case, it seems that it was the preferred arrangement in the eyes most of the black parents and the black principal, but obviously not the black parents making the complaint (and that would not make them wrong—if you’re legitimately upset, you’re legitimately upset).
In a recording of a March call provided to the AJC by Posey’s attorney, a person identified in the complaint as an APS administrator states that the district found the allegation about how Black students were assigned to classes “to be true” and states that the district made it clear that the practice cannot happen.
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