Transportation Referendum - Support! (live, bus, train)

[K-SawDude]

Originally Posted by arjay57

No, I'll have to admit I haven't seen any statistics on who pays for the roads. Based on what you hear on the radio and in general conversation, though, it stands to reason that the folks fighting against higher taxes (i.e., conservatives) would be those who are already laying out a bundle. When you read about 30,000 people lining up to get a form for Section 8 and that 1 in 5 people is on food stamps, you have to wonder whether they are putting in a lot for roads.

Maybe they are, however. I'd certainly be open to seeing the numbers.

In addition to that link I posted above, you might want to take a look at the following book: Amazon.com: What's the Matter with Kansas?: How Conservatives Won the Heart of America (9780805077742): Thomas Frank: Books

This was the first major political book that studied the fact that in the last few decades, lower income folks often vote more conservative than middle and high income folks. And that's despite the fact that liberals are more likely to keep programs in place that assist them financially.

And btw, I think Cameron is coming down sort of hard on you. In my experience, most people share the (false) assumption that conservatives are more likely to pay more in taxes. Even anecdotally, I can aver that the vast majority of my extended family that receives some form of public assistance vote conservative. (Only one liberal I can think of who does that.) I think they're hypocrites, and I'm constantly amazed at their lack of self-awareness. But in my experience, the loudest "No taxes no government" types are the quickest to ask for the handouts that they complain about, as soon as they qualify for that assistance.

[Cameron H]

Originally Posted by K-SawDude

And btw, I think Cameron is coming down sort of hard on you. In my experience, most people share the (false) assumption that conservatives are more likely to pay more in taxes.

Maybe. Oftentimes I can't even discern what arjay's position actually is, what with all the "Oh, I don't know, that's just what I've heard on the radio..." business. That's why I asked straight-up "Is this your assumption?" I still never got an answer.

[arjay57]

Originally Posted by Cameron H

In other words, your suggestion that conservatives pay their own way, while those of us with different political views don't, is without foundation. It would be nice if you simply acknowledged that, instead of continuing to dodge and weave.

Cameron, I know there are a lot of dumb, hypocritical people drawing government benefits who nonetheless claim to be conservatives in favor of less government. It's the height of foolishness, in the literal sense.

I have also paid in a great deal of taxes, including times when the rates were much higher than they are now. I'm okay with all that. While I have never made any sort of claim for individual benefits I understand the benefits we all get from paying our taxes.

What concerns me most, frankly, is that I am not at all sure there will be anything to help my own children and grandchildren if they come on difficult times. I have tried to look after them but of course one gets older and no one is around forever. What sort of safety net will there be for them?

Anyway, we have strayed far from the topic of the thread. Let's get this transportation referendum passed and get our region back on track.

[arjay57]

Originally Posted by K-SawDude

In addition to that link I posted above, you might want to take a look at the following book: Amazon.com: What's the Matter with Kansas?: How Conservatives Won the Heart of America (9780805077742): Thomas Frank: Books

This was the first major political book that studied the fact that in the last few decades, lower income folks often vote more conservative than middle and high income folks. And that's despite the fact that liberals are more likely to keep programs in place that assist them financially.

K-Saw, I have read it and actually met the author one time. It's amazing how prone we humans are to shoot ourselves in the foot.

[K-SawDude]

Originally Posted by arjay57

K-Saw, I have read it and actually met the author one time. It's amazing how prone we humans are to shoot ourselves in the foot.

How cool! I bet that was an interesting interaction.

The data I've seen this year so far have been interesting: socioeconomically speaking, it's something like non-minority low income voters (under $35 K or so) + high income voters ($300K) = conservative voter base in the United States. There are obviously a lot more voters in the former group than the latter, even though the latter benefit far more from conservative economic philosophy (at least on a taxation basis).

To bring this back to the referendum, I wonder if the socioeconomics are similar for the T-SPLOST support? I mean, it seems obvious that the primary divide in support seems to be urban vs. suburban. I've posted elsewhere that there's also a gender divide, so it's reasonable to suspect that the TSPLOST support may also vary with other social variables (like income). It just may be the case, though, that those who stand to benefit the most from mass transit may be supporting the TSPLOST less than those who can afford to drive their cars anywhere they please!

And this probably supports Cameron's assertion that "tribalism"--e.g, "I and my urban bretheren want more trains, but we'll deal with your roads as needed" vs. "We suburbans don't need YOUR loser trains"--is dictating voter behavior more than anything else.

[toll_booth]

Originally Posted by arjay57

It's more of the softening up of America. When conservatives want to go somewhere they simply get in the car and go. They don't need special taxpayer funded 8 foot wide "multiuse bike trails." If they did they would build them with their own money.

Then why the hell do they fight this stuff? I thought libertarian/conservatives favored freedom!

[aries4118]

Part 1: Mr. Stan Still's Guide to Atlanta Traffic - YouTube

[aries4118]

Originally Posted by aries4118

Part 1: Mr. Stan Still's Guide to Atlanta Traffic - YouTube

T-SPLOST Advocates Inject Wit, Whimsy Into Media Orgy - Video Interlude - Curbed Atlanta

[toll_booth]

Originally Posted by K-SawDude

How cool! I bet that was an interesting interaction.

The data I've seen this year so far have been interesting: socioeconomically speaking, it's something like non-minority low income voters (under $35 K or so) + high income voters ($300K) = conservative voter base in the United States. There are obviously a lot more voters in the former group than the latter, even though the latter benefit far more from conservative economic philosophy (at least on a taxation basis).

To bring this back to the referendum, I wonder if the socioeconomics are similar for the T-SPLOST support? I mean, it seems obvious that the primary divide in support seems to be urban vs. suburban. I've posted elsewhere that there's also a gender divide, so it's reasonable to suspect that the TSPLOST support may also vary with other social variables (like income). It just may be the case, though, that those who stand to benefit the most from mass transit may be supporting the TSPLOST less than those who can afford to drive their cars anywhere they please!

And this probably supports Cameron's assertion that "tribalism"--e.g, "I and my urban bretheren want more trains, but we'll deal with your roads as needed" vs. "We suburbans don't need YOUR loser trains"--is dictating voter behavior more than anything else.

This. I favor an all-of-the-above approach to transportation. Let the 'burbs have their roads (but not eight lanes wide ) and the city have its transit (but get the zoning density first).

[cqholt]

http://beltline.org/wp-content/uploa...05/TIA-101.pdf